A Taste of Skizz #15

The discussion here reminded me that I never said anything publicly about our involvement in The South Pacific (TSP) during my presidency. At the time, I kept quiet because I felt the details might harm our diplomatic relations. If that was ever true, I'm convinced it no longer is. Therefore, I'm going to tell the story.

This is not a definitive history, but an account of events from my perspective. Others are invited to correct or supplement my account. I only care about the TSP affair insofar as it affected Europeia, so don't expect a fulsome account of the affair and its NS-wide implications.

Here goes:

Well-known defender Sedge, from The Rejected Realms (TRR), led an effort to overthrow the delegate in TSP. He was joined by Unknown, TNI and LKE. It was a massive operation, so I presume he had other allies too. The Founderless Regions Alliance (FRA), under the leadership of Unibot (who was FRA Arch-Chancellor at the time), came to the aid of the incumbent government of TSP.

I wasn't part of the initial deliberations, but I can see how the decision might have been difficult. On one hand, we would normally side with our raider allies, and against the FRA. On the other, we enjoyed friendly relations with TSP (more so than with the other feeders), and HEM was involved in the government of TSP at the time. For whatever reason, we sided with the native government of TSP.

While the TSP affair was ongoing, Earth resigned. HEM, Ollie and Griff resigned their posts here more or less contemporaneously with Earth. (Griff had been GA.) Plenty has been written on these forums about those events.

As Vice President, I assumed the presidency upon Earth's resignation. Even before my GA was confirmed, one of the admirals (not sure which one) asked privately if I wanted to continue to support TSP against the raiders, who by this point had assumed the delegacy. Motivated by a desire to repair relations with HEM, I said we should continue. After that, I mostly ignored the issue. A few days later, the raid fell apart and TSP's native delegate was restored.

Somewhere in there, I was advised by someone (not sure who) that our involvement in TSP might have violated our treaty obligations. Therefore, I took pains not to disclose our involvement. Later, I reviewed the treaties myself and concluded I had been advised wrongly, but even so, I decided the matter was sensitive enough that I shouldn't discuss it publicly. I did respond privately to a couple citizens who asked questions about our involvement.

I could say more about the fallout across the NS world from the TSP affair, but I'll leave that to someone who follows those things closely. Europeia's involvement in TSP was very minor; ironically, my (possibly misguided) efforts to keep our involvement quiet may have caused some people to believe we were more involved than we were. From Europeia's standpoint, TSP was little more than a garden-variety reinforcement operation. I'm surprised it's still a topic of interest -- and after this boring account, perhaps it won't be anymore.
 
I'm wondering if I did harm by starting this thread.

What lesson should I learn? Does confidentiality allow grievances to fester and become more deep-seated than they would be if we addressed conflicts in a timely and forthright manner? Or do a lot of people here lack the maturity to handle conflict constructively, such that leaders should keep conflicts under wraps whenever possible?

Put another way, was my mistake keeping silent about TSP for so long, or was it breaking that silence now?
As a general rule: the sooner the better.
Ewww <_<
Not in that case, dear.
 
I'm wondering if I did harm by starting this thread.

What lesson should I learn? Does confidentiality allow grievances to fester and become more deep-seated than they would be if we addressed conflicts in a timely and forthright manner? Or do a lot of people here lack the maturity to handle conflict constructively, such that leaders should keep conflicts under wraps whenever possible?

Put another way, was my mistake keeping silent about TSP for so long, or was it breaking that silence now?
As a general rule: the sooner the better.
Ewww <_<
Not in that case, dear.
LOL, this reminds me of a scene from Entourage where ARI is so worked up... and does it SOOOO fast and it's like ahahahaha
 
I'm wondering if I did harm by starting this thread.

What lesson should I learn? Does confidentiality allow grievances to fester and become more deep-seated than they would be if we addressed conflicts in a timely and forthright manner? Or do a lot of people here lack the maturity to handle conflict constructively, such that leaders should keep conflicts under wraps whenever possible?

Put another way, was my mistake keeping silent about TSP for so long, or was it breaking that silence now?
As a general rule: the sooner the better.
Ewww <_<
Not in that case, dear.
LOL, this reminds me of a scene from Entourage where ARI is so worked up... and does it SOOOO fast and it's like ahahahaha
... wut
 
Chasing them off? My god, oh my god Henry...I just...

Oliver left the first time because he found a new region to gain political prestige in because Europeia wasn't fully agreeing with his opinions. Basically, he found a better horse and made me his scapegoat (re Hyanygo v. Me fight).

Oliver then returned after his lackluster reception in the Rejected Realms, and is leaving now because, once more, he found a better horse.

Henry, if you need more background please PM me or talk to me on MSN sometime.
Europeia has failed Oliver many times over. Whatever reason he gave for leaving at any time would probably be pitched in such a way where feelings weren't hurt as much. That's just the type of man Ollie is. You can say that it was just a simple disagreement, but there is no such thing here. You've seen the reactions of people over what I've been saying. It's the same for anyone with the balls enough to stand up and say something that doesn't go in line with what people believe. You get ridiculed and put down; made to feel like shit and then when you're broken down to the point where you can't argue your stance anymore, you give up. Do you even understand how horrible that feels? No, HEM; you don't. Not here, anyway. You remain silent until you feel your words will be well-received. You remain conservative; keeping your thoughts under wrap until such a point in time occurs that you can say them and remain popular. You're also the founder and a highly respected person here. You know the shame of defeat, but not the way Ollie has felt it or the way I have felt it here. Anumia knows and he still piles shit on. That's the type of man he is.

Like I said; you can keep ignoring that there is a problem all you want. The fact remains that there is a problem and it causes people to leave.
 
And only one reply later-- still applicable.
Let me break it down into simpler terms that you, our wonderful Senate Speaker, can understand:

Europeia has a bunch of great people, but it also houses quite a few parasites who dish abuse out on others. I'm sure that line will be flipped to counter that I have done the same and I'll admit that I have. When tensions rise people tend to fight and stuff gets said that probably shouldn't.

Fliyan, Cary/LeninCat, Jerrymania, Fortana. These are 4 names that no longer grace our halls with the same frequency as they used to. With Fliyan, people lacked the patience to put up with his childish ways (he was 12/13?) and hated on him because he wasn't as smart as they thought he should have been. People were unduly mean to him and used him as a scapegoat for all of their hatred. Cary could take the heat for his Communist-favoring posts, but I'm sure it wore on him after a while as well. Fortana was never taken seriously here, yet he holds important roles in various regions throughout NS and is a man to be respected. How he takes the constant disrespect here, I don't know; but he is a better man than most here, including me. Jerry was just annoying and people took a situation, blew it out of proportion and then used it to get rid of him. When he came back, the same was done. People just wanted to get rid of him.

Constantly, I try not to let my temper get the better of me and I make the attempt to keep personal insults from flying during the arguing of a stance and yet others who don't care to put such restraint on themselves continue to heap insults on me whenever I post because of how I post. They get support for their insults; people who come in and agree with them and also insult me, while my supporters usually remain silent and let me handle my own. It's a hard fight to do once, let alone every time I have something to say. I know I'm not just spouting off at the mouth, saying unimportant things, but how do I convince others of that when the only people who seem to speak are those who wish to insult me or those speaking against what I'm saying? It's made me feel and act crazy here. Events have pushed me to become what I have become here.

Events have done similar to Ollie. I once knew a kind and gentle man who, even when hard-pressed, would not say a bad word against someone. Since I've been here, I've seen him pushed to the breaking point a couple times. A better man than I could hope to be, broken down and changed for the worse by all of this.

When I say Europeia has failed him, I mean that he has fought and clawed and given his fair measure of devotion, blood and sweat to this machine only to see it become what it's become. Europeia discarded him, not the other way around. It said, 'sorry, your ideas are useless now; all of what you worked for is a laugh in your face.' You say he left to find a better horse; I disagree with that. I think he left multiple times because of how serious the fighting gets here; how personal it becomes. You all turned your backs on him, not the other way around.

5 cases of running people off. 6 if you count mine. Probably more that weren't even noticed. The fact that some of them still come back doesn't make your treatment of them ok. Just because Ollie gave another reason for leaving doesn't mean that he wasn't sore about the kick in the nuts.
 
LOL.

Frankly I think it's fairly insulting putting Fortana, and dare I say Ollie too, in the same category as some of those others. Completely different scenarios. Your factual accuracy leaves much to be desired too. You're pretty much talking unfounded nonsense to be honest, and I can quite adequately respond to half a page of text with a few sentences it is so bad.

Fortana was never taken seriously here, yet he holds important roles in various regions throughout NS and is a man to be respected.

I respect Fortana a great deal, and I know others here do to. You may not have noticed, perhaps someone fitted blinkers to you to stop you seeing things around you that might scare you, that he was recently elected World Assembly Delegate here. A position in which he is serving in ably and successfully at the moment, and should that continue, I have no doubt he will be held in much acclaim.

Personally, to remedy this situation, I suggest a muzzle is fitted, in addition to the blinkers. :p

Just because Ollie gave another reason for leaving doesn't mean that he wasn't sore about the kick in the nuts.

-What- kick in the nuts?
 
LOL.

Frankly I think it's fairly insulting putting Fortana, and dare I say Ollie too, in the same category as some of those others. Completely different scenarios. Your factual accuracy leaves much to be desired too. You're pretty much talking unfounded nonsense to be honest, and I can quite adequately respond to half a page of text with a few sentences it is so bad.

Fortana was never taken seriously here, yet he holds important roles in various regions throughout NS and is a man to be respected.

I respect Fortana a great deal, and I know others here do to. You may not have noticed, perhaps someone fitted blinkers to you to stop you seeing things around you that might scare you, that he was recently elected World Assembly Delegate here. A position in which he is serving in ably and successfully at the moment, and should that continue, I have no doubt he will be held in much acclaim.

Personally, to remedy this situation, I suggest a muzzle is fitted, in addition to the blinkers. :p

Just because Ollie gave another reason for leaving doesn't mean that he wasn't sore about the kick in the nuts.

-What- kick in the nuts?
Same could be said for you. It's quite obvious you have blinders on, otherwise you wouldn't be coming at me for putting Ollie and Fort in the same grouping as the others I mentioned. Aren't all men created equal?

The WA Delegacy is a fluff position. It's so easy a trained monkey could do it. How is that giving respect to Fortana's abilities? All he has to do is go read the resolutions, copy and paste them here, get discussion going on them and then vote. Collect endorsements, get involved in everything going on. Not difficult, just time-consuming and monotonous.

Unfounded nonsense... Hey, I know. How about you stop having such an inflated ego and realize that you're part of the problem same as I was when I was busy insulting people instead of sticking to my arguments.

I don't believe that I said that the razzing has continued for Fort, just that it was really bad in the past. It was an example and it served the purpose. There's been many other examples of people leaving due to BS here, including Hyanygo and Earth.

Don't brush off what I say as nothing just so you can personally attack me and insult me yet again. You look foolish talking down to me and look even more foolish for what you said about other people.
 
Same could be said for you. It's quite obvious you have blinders on, otherwise you wouldn't be coming at me for putting Ollie and Fort in the same grouping as the others I mentioned. Aren't all men created equal?

No, they most certainly are not. We are all different. Some people are better at this game than others. Some people are a waste of space in this game. More trouble than they are worth. Some by a great degree. Some are a lot of trouble, and worth very little. They are a nuisance, and detract from the game experience for all. A very select few are little trouble, and worth a lot. They are valuable, and contribute towards the game for everyone. Most are somewhere in the middle. It is that simple.

The WA Delegacy is a fluff position. It's so easy a trained monkey could do it. How is that giving respect to Fortana's abilities? All he has to do is go read the resolutions, copy and paste them here, get discussion going on them and then vote. Collect endorsements, get involved in everything going on. Not difficult, just time-consuming and monotonous.

That could be said of virtually any position or job in this game. None of it is rocket science I am afraid. The Admiralty, the Interior Ministry, Citizen Integration, etc. A lot of it is monotonous, simple, and it is possible to copy your predecessor so the monkey comparison can be made. However, doing any of them well is not such a simple matter, and a great deal of skill and perseverence are required to succeed. In fact, with all of these things, the sky is the limit, there is always the potential to offer more, and to do it more efficiently. If they were so easy, we wouldn't see people frequently making a hash up of them. I have seen a great variety from the WAD's that serve in regions, you really can do a good job, or a bad job. Fort is discussing WA related issues in the EAAC, with a view to possible reforms and changes to the position. There is also potential to engage with the wider WA community and have a bigger say in WA affairs, perhaps even eventually authoring resolutions etc. As I said the sky is the limit, don't demean the position with your narrow minded stupidity.

Unfounded nonsense... Hey, I know. How about you stop having such an inflated ego and realize that you're part of the problem same as I was when I was busy insulting people instead of sticking to my arguments.

I don't believe that I said that the razzing has continued for Fort, just that it was really bad in the past. It was an example and it served the purpose. There's been many other examples of people leaving due to BS here, including Hyanygo and Earth.

Don't brush off what I say as nothing just so you can personally attack me and insult me yet again. You look foolish talking down to me and look even more foolish for what you said about other people.

Again. I'd welcome any comments which actually put some meat behind the idea that bullshit, or a "kick in the nuts" was the reason why Earth or Ollie left. If indeed the latter has, as far as I can see he hasn't.
 
Chasing them off? My god, oh my god Henry...I just...

Oliver left the first time because he found a new region to gain political prestige in because Europeia wasn't fully agreeing with his opinions. Basically, he found a better horse and made me his scapegoat (re Hyanygo v. Me fight).

Oliver then returned after his lackluster reception in the Rejected Realms, and is leaving now because, once more, he found a better horse.

Henry, if you need more background please PM me or talk to me on MSN sometime.
Europeia has failed Oliver many times over. Whatever reason he gave for leaving at any time would probably be pitched in such a way where feelings weren't hurt as much. That's just the type of man Ollie is. You can say that it was just a simple disagreement, but there is no such thing here. You've seen the reactions of people over what I've been saying. It's the same for anyone with the balls enough to stand up and say something that doesn't go in line with what people believe. You get ridiculed and put down; made to feel like shit and then when you're broken down to the point where you can't argue your stance anymore, you give up. Do you even understand how horrible that feels? No, HEM; you don't. Not here, anyway. You remain silent until you feel your words will be well-received. You remain conservative; keeping your thoughts under wrap until such a point in time occurs that you can say them and remain popular. You're also the founder and a highly respected person here. You know the shame of defeat, but not the way Ollie has felt it or the way I have felt it here. Anumia knows and he still piles shit on. That's the type of man he is.

Like I said; you can keep ignoring that there is a problem all you want. The fact remains that there is a problem and it causes people to leave.
Umm, how about no?

Oliver has been let down by Europeia? Are we revising history already, or what?

My goal in this thread isn't to tear down one person. I refuse to write a post in this thread (to someone who seems to have zero interest in anything but his own opinion). Oliver is not a terrible man of incredible evil, but the story you tell is simply an imaginary narrative. However -- again -- I will not try to "win this" by pointing out singularly all the bad things one person has done.

Why?

Because at the end of the day we are all chef salads. We all do good, we all do bad. We all screw up, we all usher in miracles.

My reputation is no different. So while you believe your criticisms of me are "leveling skyscrapers" so to say, I realize quite keenly that they are simply nods to my own humanity. I do not agree with all of what you say, but I believe the time for this spitball contest to end, and I shall not prolong it by defending my reputation at any costs.
 
So, just because these people have different abilities than others means that people have the right to treat them how they want? That's what I'm getting from you. They're still equal, just in different areas. For you to say that I should not group people together when talking about BS being the cause of people leaving is ridiculously close-minded and petty.

The point I was trying to make about the WA Delegacy is that it takes very little effort to maintain or run. All a person really has to do in that position is bring resolutions from the NS website to here and then vote on them. Will Fort do more than that? Most likely he will, but don't try to give the Delegacy more prestige than it has. A go-getter can make the best of any position they're in and shape it to their will. The Delegacy itself is not a very highly sought position nor do the people who hold that office get much acclaim or recognition.

How do you prove what goes on in other peoples heads? It's called using yours. It doesn't take rocket science to imagine how you would react and feel in certain situations. An accumulation of events over time; a number of other reasons and staying here seems less and less like a good idea. Did I say that the BS here is the sole reason they left? No, I did not. It most certainly weighed on their thoughts though. I could give you a litany of reasons why I left at any given time, but it doesn't mean I give you every reason. It doesn't mean that they recognize it as a reason. Could just be a feeling of needing to get out of here without any one situation in particular sticking out in their minds.

To say that it doesn't bear on their thoughts and doesn't become a part of their reasoning is just ludicrous to say. You have a problem presented to you and instead of trying to fix the problem, you're looking for me to prove why you should fix it when it should be obvious why. Just because I can not provide concrete proof of it being the sole reason of people leaving doesn't mean that it should just be let to continue.
 
My goal in this thread isn't to tear down one person. I refuse to write a post in this thread (to someone who seems to have zero interest in anything but his own opinion). Oliver is not a terrible man of incredible evil, but the story you tell is simply an imaginary narrative. However -- again -- I will not try to "win this" by pointing out singularly all the bad things one person has done.

And my goal isn't to defend or build up one person. My reasoning for posting in the first place was the severity in attack against The Library and the continuation of bullshit that you all continue to allow to happen. Every time I speak out about it, I get told to shut up. I get called a hypocrite and then things continue on for bit. Nothing gets better, it just gets ignored.

Why?

Because at the end of the day we are all chef salads. We all do good, we all do bad. We all screw up, we all usher in miracles.

There you go. That's what I was waiting for. People around here act like that statement isn't true. Not saying you or anyone in particular, just people in general. Now you go and post that statement up at the top of Europeia for people to see when they first get here and every time they log in so they don't forget it.

My reputation is no different. So while you believe your criticisms of we are "leveling skyscrapers" so to say, I realize quite keenly that they are simply nods to my own humanity. I do not agree with all of what you say, but I believe the time for this spitball contest to end, and I shall not prolong it by defending my reputation at any costs.

And yet you did prolong it to defend your reputation; that's the irony of that statement. I don't necessarily point things out in the best manner. I'm working on doing that. I'm not just going to ignore stuff like this, though and when people choose to argue and fight instead of recognizing their own part in the madness that's become Europeia, that's when things get out of control; that's when you see 20 pages of Henry every other post trying to keep up with every wild tangent that's sent his way by people trying to evade the true topic of discussion.

You have people here who don't want to become better humans. They don't want to acknowledge any fault of their own and those people are going to be what ruins Europeia if you allow them to.
 
And my goal isn't to defend or build up one person. My reasoning for posting in the first place was the severity in attack against The Library and the continuation of bullshit that you all continue to allow to happen. Every time I speak out about it, I get told to shut up. I get called a hypocrite and then things continue on for bit. Nothing gets better, it just gets ignored.

You are a hypocrite. You judge other people, you contribute negativity where you cite negativity as a vice. I say this not to be a jerk, but to try to allow yourself to see how we can improve as a whole is only by improving individually.

And guess what? My argument was that there was no severe attack on the Library? There are those who would have advocated for one -- however I do not believe that to be the best for anyone.

My argument is also that people have a right to their opinions, and a right to be pissed off. You seem to be so indignant that people dare to dislike Oliver. Who cares?
 
Henry. Seriously.



Oliver's done a lot for Europeia, but with some of those TSP related comments on the open nationstates forums such as taking support for the other side where he could, he should probably be up for treason. We've all been down that road before and know what the penalty is. As far as I'm concerned, Europeia is being -nice- to Oliver to just forget about it. If you can't handle it, go back to Region Inc or something.
 
You are a hypocrite. You judge other people, you contribute negativity where you cite negativity as a vice. I say this not to be a jerk, but to try to allow yourself to see how we can improve as a whole is only by improving individually.

Do you realize that this is what I have been asking people to do for a long time? To be straightforward and honest? I respect you more for telling me that than before you said it. I respect it because it's true. I've got no other way of fighting negativity. I grew up surrounded by negativity and a person who was a paranoid schizophrenic. My biggest fear is that more of his bad qualities rubbed off on me than good ones. I try really hard to not let paranoia get the better of me, to not let negativity rule my life but I have had no experience in proper ways of combating it. I don't just want to be the nice guy that keeps getting trampled on like I've been most of my life, because that's no way to live. I just want to see some more respect and positive vibes around here. Not just towards me, but in general. I hate seeing shit like this; I hate being a part of it.

To me, HEM, words are just as bad as actions. Words can hurt so God damn much. The paranoid schizophrenic? He was good with his words. Every time you said something he didn't like or whatever, he would target your biggest weakness and tear you to shreds. On a daily basis he would come into my room, if I was still home when he was awake, to tear me down with words. My entire family was shit according to him. I was the biggest piece of shit on the planet. My family was fucked up so I was the biggest fuck up. Words can hurt a lot, so much more than actions or physical pain.

I'm more indignant about how hurtful people were in general. I consider Ollie my friend even though he probably doesn't consider me to be his and I will always speak up for my friends, whether they want me to or not, but I didn't mean to make this all about him.

I also didn't mean to bring this down to such an intimate level, nor do I want pity. If I wanted pity, I would have made a much bigger deal about it. We're talking, which is good.
 
And only one reply later-- still applicable.
Let me break it down into simpler terms that you, our wonderful Senate Speaker.
Honestly, Henry don't even bother.

I'd rather be immolated like Anakin Skywalker than read your posts.
And you're supposed to be the Senate Speaker. I am duly impressed, sir. How are you supposed to do your job efficiently if you won't read things that may be applicable to your term? How are you supposed to be able to give unbiased decisions in the Senate when you're so quick to judge outside of it? How are you going to lead the Senate down a correct path when just about every post I see out of you is not what should be said by the Senate Speaker?

I think I will be petitioning for your removal as Senate Speaker. Not from the Senate, just as Senate Speaker. There has to be someone better suited to lead the Senate right now.

Sopo's name comes to mind.
 
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