A Taste of Skizz #15

The discussion here reminded me that I never said anything publicly about our involvement in The South Pacific (TSP) during my presidency. At the time, I kept quiet because I felt the details might harm our diplomatic relations. If that was ever true, I'm convinced it no longer is. Therefore, I'm going to tell the story.

This is not a definitive history, but an account of events from my perspective. Others are invited to correct or supplement my account. I only care about the TSP affair insofar as it affected Europeia, so don't expect a fulsome account of the affair and its NS-wide implications.

Here goes:

Well-known defender Sedge, from The Rejected Realms (TRR), led an effort to overthrow the delegate in TSP. He was joined by Unknown, TNI and LKE. It was a massive operation, so I presume he had other allies too. The Founderless Regions Alliance (FRA), under the leadership of Unibot (who was FRA Arch-Chancellor at the time), came to the aid of the incumbent government of TSP.

I wasn't part of the initial deliberations, but I can see how the decision might have been difficult. On one hand, we would normally side with our raider allies, and against the FRA. On the other, we enjoyed friendly relations with TSP (more so than with the other feeders), and HEM was involved in the government of TSP at the time. For whatever reason, we sided with the native government of TSP.

While the TSP affair was ongoing, Earth resigned. HEM, Ollie and Griff resigned their posts here more or less contemporaneously with Earth. (Griff had been GA.) Plenty has been written on these forums about those events.

As Vice President, I assumed the presidency upon Earth's resignation. Even before my GA was confirmed, one of the admirals (not sure which one) asked privately if I wanted to continue to support TSP against the raiders, who by this point had assumed the delegacy. Motivated by a desire to repair relations with HEM, I said we should continue. After that, I mostly ignored the issue. A few days later, the raid fell apart and TSP's native delegate was restored.

Somewhere in there, I was advised by someone (not sure who) that our involvement in TSP might have violated our treaty obligations. Therefore, I took pains not to disclose our involvement. Later, I reviewed the treaties myself and concluded I had been advised wrongly, but even so, I decided the matter was sensitive enough that I shouldn't discuss it publicly. I did respond privately to a couple citizens who asked questions about our involvement.

I could say more about the fallout across the NS world from the TSP affair, but I'll leave that to someone who follows those things closely. Europeia's involvement in TSP was very minor; ironically, my (possibly misguided) efforts to keep our involvement quiet may have caused some people to believe we were more involved than we were. From Europeia's standpoint, TSP was little more than a garden-variety reinforcement operation. I'm surprised it's still a topic of interest -- and after this boring account, perhaps it won't be anymore.

 

[Rach]

I'm not sure if LKE and TNI supported Sedge.

 

[North East Somerset]

As I suspected, you were hideously badly informed on the situation. You then proceeded to remove me, possibly a key Advisor in this kind of situation, from the EAAC immediately upon becoming President claiming this was due to the TSP affair. The logic for this remains to this day a mystery.

Firstly, TNI and the LKE were not on Sedge's side. Not in the slightest, and I don't know where you heard that but it's complete and utter rubbish.

Sedge largely took the Delegacy largely through endo-tarting rather than it being a raid per se. When Devonitians (Sedge) started to fall, some raiders got together and tried to get their own candidate in a more traditional invasion attempt to seize control, but it failed, and Southern Bellz narrowly won. Again neither TNI or the LKE were backing the invasion either publicly or privately, and that could have easily been confirmed.

The resignations of a series of Europeians, including two with links to Unknown during the affair was regarded by many outside of the region as indicative that they wished to support the TSP raid attempt. Meanwhile the Supreme Chancellor HEM, who had personal interests in TSP, was seen to be a supporter of TSP. Europeia officially mobilised to back Southern Bellz (the former TSP delegate) but then the mobilisation quickly stalled as it became apparent not all Europeians were behind it, and it appeared to get shelved after just a couple of units moved in.

Oliver publicly posted this on the NS forums:

I know that most of Europeia was in there on one side of the other. I know this because I advised Europeia to support Southern Bellz while I was quietly siphoning people who owed me favours into supporting Devonitians. As far as I know, Sedge didn't call for outside assistance; Southern Bellz did.

And furthermore, where did the President and WAD who abandoned Europeia proceed to go after they resigned due to some crap about Hy? Oh, TRR. Home of Sedge and CrazyGirl, who were key planners in the TSP invasion which was then backed by them privately. And apparently you didn't even realise this was an issue. And your sweep the whole thing under the rug, hush it up approach, just compounded this.

The upshot of this all was a blow to Europeia's credibility on the international stage. And evidently one of which you were totally oblivious. Clearly when push came to shove and a difficult FA issue came to the fore, Europeia was not united. We were on both sides, neither side, one side officially, another unofficially. It was a mess. Our government did not function. It could not respond in a professional manner. It fell apart. There should have been an Inquiry - but instead it was hushed up. And then Oliver and Earth later returned, with not a word was spoken of the incident.

And quite frankly, if Europeia wants to shake it's image as a region torn between factions, incapable of deciding it's own destiny, it still has everything to prove. Especially given the likes of Oliver now actively spreading round rumours to the effect Europeia is now under TNI's control, which is of course, utter bunkum.

 

[Henry]

As I suspected, you were hideously badly informed on the situation. You then proceeded to remove me, possibly a key Advisor in this kind of situation, from the EAAC immediately upon becoming President claiming this was due to the TSP affair. The logic for this remains to this day a mystery.

Firstly, TNI and the LKE were not on Sedge's side. Not in the slightest, and I don't know where you heard that but it's complete and utter rubbish.

Sedge largely took the Delegacy largely through endo-tarting rather than it being a raid per se. When Devonitians (Sedge) started to fall, some raiders got together and tried to get their own candidate in a more traditional invasion attempt to seize control, but it failed, and Southern Bellz narrowly won. Again neither TNI or the LKE were backing the invasion either publicly or privately, and that could have easily been confirmed.

The resignations of a series of Europeians, including two with links to Unknown during the affair was regarded by many outside of the region as indicative that they wished to support the TSP raid attempt. Meanwhile the Supreme Chancellor HEM, who had personal interests in TSP, was seen to be a supporter of TSP. Europeia officially mobilised to back Southern Bellz (the former TSP delegate) but then the mobilisation quickly stalled as it became apparent not all Europeians were behind it, and it appeared to get shelved after just a couple of units moved in.

Oliver publicly posted this on the NS forums:

I know that most of Europeia was in there on one side of the other. I know this because I advised Europeia to support Southern Bellz while I was quietly siphoning people who owed me favours into supporting Devonitians. As far as I know, Sedge didn't call for outside assistance; Southern Bellz did.

And furthermore, where did the President and WAD who abandoned Europeia proceed to go after they resigned due to some crap about Hy? Oh, TRR. Home of Sedge and CrazyGirl, who were key planners in the TSP invasion which was then backed by them privately. And apparently you didn't even realise this was an issue. And your sweep the whole thing under the rug, hush it up approach, just compounded this.

The upshot of this all was a blow to Europeia's credibility on the international stage. And evidently one of which you were totally oblivious. Clearly when push came to shove and a difficult FA issue came to the fore, Europeia was not united. We were on both sides, neither side, one side officially, another unofficially. It was a mess. Our government did not function. It could not respond in a professional manner. It fell apart.

And quite frankly, if Europeia wants to shake it's image as a region torn between factions, incapable of deciding it's own destiny, it still has everything to prove. Especially given the likes of Oliver now actively spreading round rumours to the effect Europeia is now under TNI's control, which is of course, utter bunkum.

Quite frankly, Europeia was already a mess before the incident, given that we have a lot of people constantly at each others throats without compromise and without resolution. We don't work together and this just proves it. You say that Skizzy was horribly misinformed? He was the president, he should have been informed properly. No communication; no communal effort and with people at each others throats, Europeia will continue to sink down with people wondering why and trying to place the blame anywhere else but themselves; where it belongs. Knock the attitudes off; knock off the accusations and move on, because I have no doubt that Skizzy did the best job he could as President. Had he been informed better, things might have gone differently. Now he just tells his side of the story and his take on it and you immediately jump down his throat and go on the defensive about something that you didn't even seem to be involved in.

 

[Avakael]

If Unknown was involved, I missed it. Sources?

 

[North East Somerset]

You say that Skizzy was horribly misinformed? He was the president, he should have been informed properly. No communication; no communal effort and with people at each others throats, Europeia will continue to sink down with people wondering why and trying to place the blame anywhere else but themselves; where it belongs. Knock the attitudes off; knock off the accusations and move on, because I have no doubt that Skizzy did the best job he could as President. Had he been informed better, things might have gone differently.

And if you had bothered reading my post, you will see, he would have been better informed, if he had not removed me from the External Affairs Advisory Chamber immediately after the incidents occurred...

 

[Henry]

You say that Skizzy was horribly misinformed? He was the president, he should have been informed properly. No communication; no communal effort and with people at each others throats, Europeia will continue to sink down with people wondering why and trying to place the blame anywhere else but themselves; where it belongs. Knock the attitudes off; knock off the accusations and move on, because I have no doubt that Skizzy did the best job he could as President. Had he been informed better, things might have gone differently.

And if you had bothered reading my post, you will see, he would have been better informed, if he had not removed me from the External Affairs Advisory Chamber immediately after the incidents occurred...

And you didn't bother, at that point, to properly inform him because of personal feelings about being let go? How juvenile and immature is that, NES? Way to be the bigger man and do what's right for Europeia.

 

[Common-Sense Politics]

Shocking that another thread that we could learn from has turned into a shouting match. Loyalty isn't between your legs. It's in your heart, boys.

 

[Skizzy Grey]

Thinking back, the advice I received re: treaty issues referred only to Unknown. At the time, I didn't know whether TNI and LKE were involved, so the safe course was to presume they were. I never followed up to ascertain the truth -- the region was in crisis, and TSP was a very low priority. At some point, my surmise solidified into a mistaken belief that TNI/LKE were aligned with Unknown on TSP.

You then proceeded to remove me, possibly a key Advisor in this kind of situation, from the EAAC immediately upon becoming President claiming this was due to the TSP affair. The logic for this remains to this day a mystery.

One of my first actions as President was to ask the admins to change the EAC password, because of the turnover occasioned by the flurry of resignations. I dragged my feet for a few days in getting you the new password, because I had been told that our involvement in TSP was sensitive. I briefly explained my reasons to you after the fact, though now I realize my explanation must have seemed nonsensical -- and so it's understandable that you don't recall receiving an explanation at all. As I've said before, you were a valued adviser in my administration, so I regret if you feel wronged by me.

NES, I believe you were the one who first told me about Ollie's role. By that point, the TSP affair had been over for some time. I knew Ollie was active in TRR (as was Earthie), so I wasn't surprised. If I had been concerned, I would have reached out to them and got their side of the story.


Edit: Clarity, since this is for posterity.

 

[Sopo]

As someone who was not around for this incident, I find both Skizzy's and NES's point of view on this highly enlightening.

 

[North East Somerset]

You say that Skizzy was horribly misinformed? He was the president, he should have been informed properly. No communication; no communal effort and with people at each others throats, Europeia will continue to sink down with people wondering why and trying to place the blame anywhere else but themselves; where it belongs. Knock the attitudes off; knock off the accusations and move on, because I have no doubt that Skizzy did the best job he could as President. Had he been informed better, things might have gone differently.

And if you had bothered reading my post, you will see, he would have been better informed, if he had not removed me from the External Affairs Advisory Chamber immediately after the incidents occurred...

And you didn't bother, at that point, to properly inform him because of personal feelings about being let go? How juvenile and immature is that, NES? Way to be the bigger man and do what's right for Europeia.

No, no, I was told "Skizzy has decided to not include you in the FA team atm" and that the TSP affair was not to be discussed, and that is why I was unable to contribute on the matter or enlighten Skizzy. Because he categorically didn't want to be. I was let back into the EAC on the premise I would not dig up the issue etc.

 

[Rach]

In terms of what happened, we did support TSP throughout I believe although it could have tailed. Just not officially and I think that's what we should have done. We shouldn't be the ones who back down, we should be the ones who set the tone and lead. But, you know the decision was made to focus on internal affairs given the resignations. So a policy of non-official intervention was also likely a factor in not officially supporting TSP.

I'm trying to sort through the logs, but we didn't discuss matters in an organized matter at times. The brief period when NES wasn't part of the EAC, we didn't discuss TSP much anyway.

 

[North East Somerset]

I'm trying to sort through the logs, but we didn't discuss matters in an organized matter at times. The brief period when NES wasn't part of the EAC, we didn't discuss TSP much anyway.

Well, no, obviously. It was never properly discussed from Day 1, it was always deemed easier to sweep it under the rug than face the reality of what had just happenned.

 

[Skizzy Grey]

If Unknown was involved, I missed it. Sources?

I don't think this was secret, Dev. I'll bet Savaer or Elindra would confirm if asked.

 

[Rach]

I'm trying to sort through the logs, but we didn't discuss matters in an organized matter at times. The brief period when NES wasn't part of the EAC, we didn't discuss TSP much anyway.

Well, no, obviously. It was never properly discussed from Day 1, it was always deemed easier to sweep it under the rug than face the reality of what had just happenned.

I don't think it was "swept" under the rug. Skizzy and I had to start basically start a term together, the EAC stuff at the beginning wasn't a priority when compared to getting the region going again. I didn't start a topic on it, so I think we were more concerned about getting the region going again than worrying about other regions.

 

[North East Somerset]

It was swept under the rug, it wasn't even discussed in the EAC itself at all before I rejoined, and it was only ever mentioned in a few passing comments upon my return to the EAC.

The brief period when NES wasn't part of the EAC

And I was excluded for 2 weeks. When Skizzy reopened the EAC on May 26th he stated:

I also left out NES, but will invite him back when the whole TSP thing is over.

I wasn't reinvited back in till June 7th and then I said:

I'm back.

No idea why I was excluded due to TSP, surely I would have been an extremely useful asset for Strategy on that matter - experienced with dealing with Feeder Affairs from the position of a UCR, and well detached and unbiased.

Incidentally, the timing for my re-introduction now is far worse! But nevermind, get back to work, and lets make sure we make the right decisions for Europeia in the future.

By saying far worse, I meant I had a direct conflict of interest due to the then relevant TKR-TNI issue. Skizzy replied:

Meh, I'm not too worried about the TNI/TKR thing. You guys will do what you guys will do. smile.gif

I think we were on the opposite side of the TSP thing from TNI and LKE, and I didn't want to put you in an awkward spot. As it turned out, there wasn't much discussion of it here, but when I changed the password after Earth/Ollie/Griff left, I thought we'd be discussing TSP here much more than we actually did.

I quoted his first paragraph and replied:

Skizzy, I think TNI/LKE went through exactly the same motions as Europeia regarding TSP. As you'd expect for three regions whom are closely aligned, on a matter which they had little experience on and was distant to them.

So, I think you were worrying about a conflict of interest, which did not exist. The only conflicts of interest going on were between the then President and the then Supreme Chancellor. The less said about that, the better.

So there you have it, Henry. Then and there I told him then and there directly that TNI/LKE were on the same side, and he still didn't appear to take it in. His reply was:

laugh.gif

Well played.

And that's the last that was said on the matter.

 

[Skizzy Grey]

Here's the part I don't get:

Earth was President here when the TSP affair began to unfold. Griff was her GA. If Earth asked Griff to take one side or the other in this matter, he would've done that. It wouldn't have raised eyebrows for us to side with Unknown, and against the FRA (though their participation might have been unforeseen). So if Earth wanted to help her friends in TRR, she could have told Griff to order the Navy to support the invasion.

Wouldn't that be easier, and more effective, then starting a fight with HEM and resigning from the region?

Remember, HEM briefly left the region too; the scene was quite ugly, and it involved people who didn't leave, and who had nothing to do with the TSP thing (e.g., Hyanygo). In sum, it didn't look at all like the sort of fight one might stage as a ruse to conceal a pre-planned exit.

And from NES's post, it appears I need to take remedial reading comprehension classes. :lol:

In hindsight, I think we should have stayed neutral. Making a half-assed attempt to intervene in a squabble that didn't concern us, without any allies on our side, was a bad move.

Of course, it's easy to say that now that HEM's back in the fold. If I had pulled out of TSP and HEM hadn't come back, people would be jumping to make a causal connection between those two things and hang me for it.

 

[Skizzy Grey]

It was swept under the rug, it wasn't even discussed in the EAC itself at all before I rejoined, and it was only ever mentioned in a few passing comments upon my return to the EAC.

I think you're confusing "sweeping under the rug" with "not giving a s--t."

Maybe I shouldn't have been, but I was firmly in the latter camp.

 

[Sopo]

It's easy to understand how the situation could have been mishandled in the midst of a much larger crisis, that of the region losing a President, Delegate, and GA all at once.