A Taste of Skizz #15

The discussion here reminded me that I never said anything publicly about our involvement in The South Pacific (TSP) during my presidency. At the time, I kept quiet because I felt the details might harm our diplomatic relations. If that was ever true, I'm convinced it no longer is. Therefore, I'm going to tell the story.

This is not a definitive history, but an account of events from my perspective. Others are invited to correct or supplement my account. I only care about the TSP affair insofar as it affected Europeia, so don't expect a fulsome account of the affair and its NS-wide implications.

Here goes:

Well-known defender Sedge, from The Rejected Realms (TRR), led an effort to overthrow the delegate in TSP. He was joined by Unknown, TNI and LKE. It was a massive operation, so I presume he had other allies too. The Founderless Regions Alliance (FRA), under the leadership of Unibot (who was FRA Arch-Chancellor at the time), came to the aid of the incumbent government of TSP.

I wasn't part of the initial deliberations, but I can see how the decision might have been difficult. On one hand, we would normally side with our raider allies, and against the FRA. On the other, we enjoyed friendly relations with TSP (more so than with the other feeders), and HEM was involved in the government of TSP at the time. For whatever reason, we sided with the native government of TSP.

While the TSP affair was ongoing, Earth resigned. HEM, Ollie and Griff resigned their posts here more or less contemporaneously with Earth. (Griff had been GA.) Plenty has been written on these forums about those events.

As Vice President, I assumed the presidency upon Earth's resignation. Even before my GA was confirmed, one of the admirals (not sure which one) asked privately if I wanted to continue to support TSP against the raiders, who by this point had assumed the delegacy. Motivated by a desire to repair relations with HEM, I said we should continue. After that, I mostly ignored the issue. A few days later, the raid fell apart and TSP's native delegate was restored.

Somewhere in there, I was advised by someone (not sure who) that our involvement in TSP might have violated our treaty obligations. Therefore, I took pains not to disclose our involvement. Later, I reviewed the treaties myself and concluded I had been advised wrongly, but even so, I decided the matter was sensitive enough that I shouldn't discuss it publicly. I did respond privately to a couple citizens who asked questions about our involvement.

I could say more about the fallout across the NS world from the TSP affair, but I'll leave that to someone who follows those things closely. Europeia's involvement in TSP was very minor; ironically, my (possibly misguided) efforts to keep our involvement quiet may have caused some people to believe we were more involved than we were. From Europeia's standpoint, TSP was little more than a garden-variety reinforcement operation. I'm surprised it's still a topic of interest -- and after this boring account, perhaps it won't be anymore.

 

[Henry]

I was pissed off when I posted that, obviously. Have some consideration for me blowing off steam. I believe I've been justified to do so by the amount of personal insults flying my way. I felt attacked and I reverted to old habits of attacking back. I apologize for the unprofessionalism.

HEM, from what I saw in the past week, I understand the disdain, I believe. I may not understand it as well as those who feel it themselves, but I understand it. I don't believe it's right, because they hold such disdain themselves without knowing everything. When all of the facts are not presented, how can people be so quick to accuse and judge? Are people trying to bridge the gap in a good way, though? The problem I have with people here is that too often there are too many personal insults flying through the air and of course when presented with personal insults I tend to react in kind; not many compromises are made, though that is slowly changing as people learn to stop arguing sooner and find ways to make it pleasing to both of them or all of them. The problem with Europeia is that, constantly, people get too caught up in what's going on to see what's happening around them.

Instinct and intuition have always served me very well and they tell me that something is very wrong in Europeia right now. Can't say what it is for sure, but given that and the course of events of the past year up until now, the only real course of action at this point is for Europeia to fall and never pick itself back up again, or to fall very far and have to rebuild. I don't think people have it in them anymore to rebuild Europeia. It was barely done with Falc, and now that peoples interest in Europeia is diminishing because of the conflicts that occur; enough for their loyalty to waver; enough for them to create their own forums to try and do things better; Europeia is in prime form right now to be conquered from the inside. Don't be foolish enough to believe that Europeia doesn't have enemies.

Rachel, I'm sure some people here respect me, but it's the ones who don't and the ones who stay silent that make me feel like I'm not and that I'm not welcome to speak my mind. It makes me want to leave almost every time I'm here. The personal insults, especially. I've tried to stay away from throwing those into debates but other people are more than happy to do so when they run out of important things to say.

Sopo, that goes back to the saying, 'don't discount the message due to the source.' Just because I'm an imperfect vessel doesn't mean that I can't still speak out or lend help. The fact that I'm cognizant of my own faults makes a difference and I'm able to work on the problem. Like anything difficult, it takes time. Some times it takes too much time. Then again, a person who speaks bluntly like I do is valued as a great treasure by some people who don't like fluff or asskissery. I don't personally insult people, I only insult by pointing out things that I notice. Of course, at that point, if what I say insults you, you should probably question why.

Now, when I referred to PhDre's newspaper as filth, that could have been; and was; easily misinterpreted. I don't think anyone understood quite what I meant by that term. It wasn't meant as an insult and it definitely wasn't meant to make it sound like PhDre's impressive writing capabilities were any less impressive. More so, it referred to how he strung the words together; causing bad drama instead of seeking to prevent it.

Can I explain to you all in depth how instinct and intuition work? No. Can I explain to you that my subconscious is an amazing beast that enables me to pick up on things that others wouldn't pick up on? Yeah, I can. Simple little things that most people would count as coincidence, I'm good at stringing together and finding useful information from. I pull at threads to see what happens; or at least I used to before NBE and before I thought I was being threatened with a hacker. I would probably make a better detective than a politician.

Europeia won't fall in a week, or a month. It probably won't happen within a year, but it will happen and it will happen because people allowed it to; because in the confusion abounding throughout Europeia people will slip into our hierarchy and subtly take over; change the direction we've wanted to go in for so long.

 

[Deleted member 250348]

Europeia won't fall in a week, or a month. It probably won't happen within a year, but it will happen...

All things die, yes how philosophical.

 

[HEM]

I was pissed off when I posted that, obviously. Have some consideration for me blowing off steam. I believe I've been justified to do so by the amount of personal insults flying my way. I felt attacked and I reverted to old habits of attacking back. I apologize for the unprofessionalism.

HEM, from what I saw in the past week, I understand the disdain, I believe. I may not understand it as well as those who feel it themselves, but I understand it. I don't believe it's right, because they hold such disdain themselves without knowing everything. When all of the facts are not presented, how can people be so quick to accuse and judge? Are people trying to bridge the gap in a good way, though? The problem I have with people here is that too often there are too many personal insults flying through the air and of course when presented with personal insults I tend to react in kind; not many compromises are made, though that is slowly changing as people learn to stop arguing sooner and find ways to make it pleasing to both of them or all of them. The problem with Europeia is that, constantly, people get too caught up in what's going on to see what's happening around them.

Instinct and intuition have always served me very well and they tell me that something is very wrong in Europeia right now. Can't say what it is for sure, but given that and the course of events of the past year up until now, the only real course of action at this point is for Europeia to fall and never pick itself back up again, or to fall very far and have to rebuild. I don't think people have it in them anymore to rebuild Europeia. It was barely done with Falc, and now that peoples interest in Europeia is diminishing because of the conflicts that occur; enough for their loyalty to waver; enough for them to create their own forums to try and do things better; Europeia is in prime form right now to be conquered from the inside. Don't be foolish enough to believe that Europeia doesn't have enemies.

Rachel, I'm sure some people here respect me, but it's the ones who don't and the ones who stay silent that make me feel like I'm not and that I'm not welcome to speak my mind. It makes me want to leave almost every time I'm here. The personal insults, especially. I've tried to stay away from throwing those into debates but other people are more than happy to do so when they run out of important things to say.

Sopo, that goes back to the saying, 'don't discount the message due to the source.' Just because I'm an imperfect vessel doesn't mean that I can't still speak out or lend help. The fact that I'm cognizant of my own faults makes a difference and I'm able to work on the problem. Like anything difficult, it takes time. Some times it takes too much time. Then again, a person who speaks bluntly like I do is valued as a great treasure by some people who don't like fluff or asskissery. I don't personally insult people, I only insult by pointing out things that I notice. Of course, at that point, if what I say insults you, you should probably question why.

Now, when I referred to PhDre's newspaper as filth, that could have been; and was; easily misinterpreted. I don't think anyone understood quite what I meant by that term. It wasn't meant as an insult and it definitely wasn't meant to make it sound like PhDre's impressive writing capabilities were any less impressive. More so, it referred to how he strung the words together; causing bad drama instead of seeking to prevent it.

Can I explain to you all in depth how instinct and intuition work? No. Can I explain to you that my subconscious is an amazing beast that enables me to pick up on things that others wouldn't pick up on? Yeah, I can. Simple little things that most people would count as coincidence, I'm good at stringing together and finding useful information from. I pull at threads to see what happens; or at least I used to before NBE and before I thought I was being threatened with a hacker. I would probably make a better detective than a politician.

Europeia won't fall in a week, or a month. It probably won't happen within a year, but it will happen and it will happen because people allowed it to; because in the confusion abounding throughout Europeia people will slip into our hierarchy and subtly take over; change the direction we've wanted to go in for so long.

Sadly, in many ways, this just proves how you have *no* idea. The region is perhaps more healthy today than any amount of time since the April schism.

You are frustrated by people forming judgments when they don't know? I feel the same way about you mate. All the facts have not been presented, you still chose a side, fought for it (ignoring the hypocrisy along the way) and never doubted you were right.

Guess what? In some ways you are right. We overreact sometimes. We judge too fast sometimes. That's because we are human, just as you are. But I think we have more energy and eagerness to rebuild here than anytime in the last year. If you pardon me for saying, I believe I have a better grasp on that situation than you. No offense, just saying.

So...you leave again. You leave after forging half considered ideas that you are inflamed nobody takes seriously. I take you seriously Henry, and I encourage you to accept this challenge:

Talk to people personally. One on one. See if the evil you believe exists truly does. If you do this, and stick around for a while, and still believe us to be hateful -- fair enough. A man made up his own mind.

But if you run -- again. I cannot in any good conscience take you seriously. This is not meant to be an insult, and I apologize if it is, but your judgement hencefar has been too sudden and too rash.

That's my proposal mate, hope to see you around.

 

[Anumia]

I'm grumpy as all hell, and have spent a year railing against the sociopolitical issues here, and yet even I will agree with HEM that on balance we're better than April.

 

[Henry]

It's called 'region implosion' and it's not something that is done too often, yet it is a concern that was brought to my attention earlier this year by a threat made against another region and a conversation that was never meant to go beyond a few people. The situation is that people slip into a region, fall into that regions politics and legitimately earn favor and rise up in the hierarchy of the region. This is done over a slow period of time by extremely patient people. They get their chess pieces in position; the people that favor them; both natives and others they've moved in; and they start causing tensions between parties. They start removing the people that they feel are the most threatening to them. They do so by manipulating people with clever turns of phrases and words that seemingly drip with honey. They move on from there to changing things the way they want to while telling people it's in their best interests to defend against those they've removed. The end result is that a region dies by being torn apart from the inside; people turned against people until nobody has the will to carry on.

If you allow for one second the continuation of people persecuting others for simply splitting off and going their own way then you might as well hand things over to whoever wishes to doom our region. However you want to spin it that things have cooled down... Have any of the people who have said such hurtful things in the past week apologized to any of the Librarians? Has there been any reconciliation besides Sopos supposed calming down of events saying that people shouldnt condemn the Library but should be cautious of it, which isn't really a reconciliation at all but a confirmation of the right to paranoia? Am I just misinterpreting things?

 

[Anumia]

I know you spoke of more but I'm only going to respond to one part as I'm kinda tired at the moment, but your second paragraph seems partially to make the point that -because- some people left for the Library, we are -obliged- to apologise to them for impolite things said - even truthful things. Personally, I don't intend to apologise for an honourable principle if people choose to leave over it. Perhaps especially then, as one could simply leave and come back over and over whenever one is challenged in public, just to get one's way. If someone has done something wrong (and I'm not saying people from The Library have, nor that being or not being in The Library has much to do with it; it's irrelevant to my point), they should be called out on it and made to face the consequences of their wrongdoing. If they choose to leave rather than face it, that is their own choice, but in my opinion (yours likely differs) people who run when faced with such aren't likely to be contributing much to Europeia anyway.

 

[HEM]

It's called 'region implosion' and it's not something that is done too often, yet it is a concern that was brought to my attention earlier this year by a threat made against another region and a conversation that was never meant to go beyond a few people. The situation is that people slip into a region, fall into that regions politics and legitimately earn favor and rise up in the hierarchy of the region. This is done over a slow period of time by extremely patient people. They get their chess pieces in position; the people that favor them; both natives and others they've moved in; and they start causing tensions between parties. They start removing the people that they feel are the most threatening to them. They do so by manipulating people with clever turns of phrases and words that seemingly drip with honey. They move on from there to changing things the way they want to while telling people it's in their best interests to defend against those they've removed. The end result is that a region dies by being torn apart from the inside; people turned against people until nobody has the will to carry on.

If you allow for one second the continuation of people persecuting others for simply splitting off and going their own way then you might as well hand things over to whoever wishes to doom our region. However you want to spin it that things have cooled down... Have any of the people who have said such hurtful things in the past week apologized to any of the Librarians? Has there been any reconciliation besides Sopos supposed calming down of events saying that people shouldnt condemn the Library but should be cautious of it, which isn't really a reconciliation at all but a confirmation of the right to paranoia? Am I just misinterpreting things?

I see you didn't respond to my offer, or any of my other points. That's a shame.

Um, please point to me "persecution" by the whole of Europeia to people in the Library. Is citizenship being removed? Is defaming things being said? On the whole, not...at all.

There is a level of mistrust. And guess what? It happens. There is nothing inherently bad about being cautious. Nor is there anything inherently bad about not trusting specific people within a region (Oliver has gotten the brute of this). There is nothing to apologize for, nor do I intend to do so.

I suspect your next post will be a rant about how thickheaded I am to not apologize, though I have just made a solid case in this post (and the last two, now that I consider it) about why such an apology is not necessary. But you do not seem too keen to argue the broader points. Which are:

- Neither side is blameless, and if we owe and apology, one is owed vice versa.
- People are entitled to their opinions.
- Your opinion has been formed, and unmoved, despite not understanding the intricacies of the situation.
- There is no "persecution".

 

[Lynneiah]

Weren't you 'done and gone' and 'not back here until serious changes have occurred'?

 

[Fortana]

It's called 'region implosion' and it's not something that is done too often, yet it is a concern that was brought to my attention earlier this year by a threat made against another region and a conversation that was never meant to go beyond a few people. The situation is that people slip into a region, fall into that regions politics and legitimately earn favor and rise up in the hierarchy of the region. This is done over a slow period of time by extremely patient people. They get their chess pieces in position; the people that favor them; both natives and others they've moved in; and they start causing tensions between parties. They start removing the people that they feel are the most threatening to them. They do so by manipulating people with clever turns of phrases and words that seemingly drip with honey. They move on from there to changing things the way they want to while telling people it's in their best interests to defend against those they've removed. The end result is that a region dies by being torn apart from the inside; people turned against people until nobody has the will to carry on.

If you allow for one second the continuation of people persecuting others for simply splitting off and going their own way then you might as well hand things over to whoever wishes to doom our region. However you want to spin it that things have cooled down... Have any of the people who have said such hurtful things in the past week apologized to any of the Librarians? Has there been any reconciliation besides Sopos supposed calming down of events saying that people shouldnt condemn the Library but should be cautious of it, which isn't really a reconciliation at all but a confirmation of the right to paranoia? Am I just misinterpreting things?

I see you didn't respond to my offer, or any of my other points. That's a shame.

Um, please point to me "persecution" by the whole of Europeia to people in the Library. Is citizenship being removed? Is defaming things being said? On the whole, not...at all.

There is a level of mistrust. And guess what? It happens. There is nothing inherently bad about being cautious. Nor is there anything inherently bad about not trusting specific people within a region (Oliver has gotten the brute of this). There is nothing to apologize for, nor do I intend to do so.

I suspect your next post will be a rant about how thickheaded I am to not apologize, though I have just made a solid case in this post (and the last two, now that I consider it) about why such an apology is not necessary. But you do not seem too keen to argue the broader points. Which are:

- Neither side is blameless, and if we owe and apology, one is owed vice versa.
- People are entitled to their opinions.
- Your opinion has been formed, and unmoved, despite not understanding the intricacies of the situation.
- There is no "persecution".

Hear hear!

 

[Henry]

It's called 'region implosion' and it's not something that is done too often, yet it is a concern that was brought to my attention earlier this year by a threat made against another region and a conversation that was never meant to go beyond a few people. The situation is that people slip into a region, fall into that regions politics and legitimately earn favor and rise up in the hierarchy of the region. This is done over a slow period of time by extremely patient people. They get their chess pieces in position; the people that favor them; both natives and others they've moved in; and they start causing tensions between parties. They start removing the people that they feel are the most threatening to them. They do so by manipulating people with clever turns of phrases and words that seemingly drip with honey. They move on from there to changing things the way they want to while telling people it's in their best interests to defend against those they've removed. The end result is that a region dies by being torn apart from the inside; people turned against people until nobody has the will to carry on.

If you allow for one second the continuation of people persecuting others for simply splitting off and going their own way then you might as well hand things over to whoever wishes to doom our region. However you want to spin it that things have cooled down... Have any of the people who have said such hurtful things in the past week apologized to any of the Librarians? Has there been any reconciliation besides Sopos supposed calming down of events saying that people shouldnt condemn the Library but should be cautious of it, which isn't really a reconciliation at all but a confirmation of the right to paranoia? Am I just misinterpreting things?

I see you didn't respond to my offer, or any of my other points. That's a shame.

Um, please point to me "persecution" by the whole of Europeia to people in the Library. Is citizenship being removed? Is defaming things being said? On the whole, not...at all.

There is a level of mistrust. And guess what? It happens. There is nothing inherently bad about being cautious. Nor is there anything inherently bad about not trusting specific people within a region (Oliver has gotten the brute of this). There is nothing to apologize for, nor do I intend to do so.

I suspect your next post will be a rant about how thickheaded I am to not apologize, though I have just made a solid case in this post (and the last two, now that I consider it) about why such an apology is not necessary. But you do not seem too keen to argue the broader points. Which are:

- Neither side is blameless, and if we owe and apology, one is owed vice versa.
- People are entitled to their opinions.
- Your opinion has been formed, and unmoved, despite not understanding the intricacies of the situation.
- There is no "persecution".

I apologize HEM. I wasn't replying to you directly otherwise I would have remarked on your points. I probably would have mentioned in some way that I was speaking to you or responding to your points.

I'm not saying anyone here is evil. That's a bit of a stretch. I don't believe anyone to be evil. Having said that; not everyone here has Europeias best interests at heart and it would be foolish to imagine differently.

I don't think I meant the strict definition when I said the word 'persecution'.

I want you to explain to me the intricacies of the situation. As far as I can see and tell, Oliver and a couple others were involved in a situation in TSP that went against Europeia's formal stance at the time. People don't like the fact that they weren't loyal to Europeia; right? Bottom line?

Or is it the fact that Ollie and Earth were in TRR when planning was being done for TSP? Those defender punks in TRR. /satire

As it stands, nobody really understands the reasoning behind the actions surrounding TSP. I don't either, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I doubt that they did anything less than what they thought was right, but I could be wrong.

Past week or so, people have been unnecessarily hateful in regards to these individuals and a bit hasty in getting their opinions out in the open as well as being quite a bit rude. People having an opinion is one thing; how they choose to go about sharing their opinions is another. Perhaps an apology IS owed you for whatever you imagine they should apologize for, but one is definitely owed on behalf of Europeia for chasing them off more than once, causing them mental pain and anguish which may or may not have lead to the disappointment etc. that caused them to depart and/or discard loyalties.

If you want to blame them for their actions, you have to blame yourselves; at least in part; for driving them to them.

The amount of heat delivered to Ollie and Co. via The Library was way more than it should have been in light of all that. People always say; if you're dissatisfied with the system, change it. What they fail to mention is that if you can't change it, you have to change the rules of engagement. I believe that has been done adequately; by many people. The Library is an example of a harmless method. They could have done much worse than fission off and it's not even as though they've left for good, just wanting some space to do their own work.

 

[Deleted member 250348]

Perhaps an apology IS owed ... but one is definitely owed ... for chasing them off ... causing them mental pain and anguish

[hide=Are you practicing your stand up routine? It's good to see you have jokes.] :troll: [/hide]

 

[North East Somerset]

Perhaps an apology IS owed you for whatever you imagine they should apologize for, but one is definitely owed on behalf of Europeia for chasing them off more than once, causing them mental pain and anguish which may or may not have lead to the disappointment etc. that caused them to depart and/or discard loyalties.

LMAO.

I can't stop laughing at this bit...

 

[Anumia]

Perhaps an apology IS owed you for whatever you imagine they should apologize for, but one is definitely owed on behalf of Europeia for chasing them off more than once, causing them mental pain and anguish which may or may not have lead to the disappointment etc. that caused them to depart and/or discard loyalties.

Just like all of The Library wasn't involved in TSP, not all of Europeia was involved in causing what you call this mental pain and anguish. Why does the whole region owe an apology?

The amount of heat delivered to Ollie and Co. via The Library was way more than it should have been in light of all that.

I think there have been more links between complaints about Oliver and complaints about The Library made by you more than the people doing the complaining. I for one have been quite specific. In fact, the things I have argued about have been quite different to what Sopo has been arguing about, and it shows as I referred to a specific person; he referred to The Library in general. Neither of us have sought to link the two separate matters or the specific person and the general region together particularly much at any point.

 

[Sopo]

Perhaps an apology IS owed you for whatever you imagine they should apologize for, but one is definitely owed on behalf of Europeia for chasing them off more than once, causing them mental pain and anguish which may or may not have lead to the disappointment etc. that caused them to depart and/or discard loyalties.

Complete and utter bullshit.

Edit: If you're experiencing "mental pain and anguish" over a game, you should probably go see a doctor.

 

[Skizzy Grey]

I'm wondering if I did harm by starting this thread.

What lesson should I learn? Does confidentiality allow grievances to fester and become more deep-seated than they would be if we addressed conflicts in a timely and forthright manner? Or do a lot of people here lack the maturity to handle conflict constructively, such that leaders should keep conflicts under wraps whenever possible?

Put another way, was my mistake keeping silent about TSP for so long, or was it breaking that silence now?

 

[Deleted member 250348]

Put another way, was my mistake keeping silent about TSP for so long, or was it breaking that silence now?

Maybe you should assign Henry to answer this question in... 4,000 words or less. Preferably, less.

 

[North East Somerset]

Put another way, was my mistake keeping silent about TSP for so long, or was it breaking that silence now?

Maybe you should assign Henry to answer this question in... 4,000 words or less. Preferably, less.

 

[HEM]

Chasing them off? My god, oh my god Henry...I just...

Oliver left the first time because he found a new region to gain political prestige in because Europeia wasn't fully agreeing with his opinions. Basically, he found a better horse and made me his scapegoat (re Hyanygo v. Me fight).

Oliver then returned after his lackluster reception in the Rejected Realms, and is leaving now because, once more, he found a better horse.

Henry, if you need more background please PM me or talk to me on MSN sometime.

 

[Anumia]

I'm wondering if I did harm by starting this thread.

What lesson should I learn? Does confidentiality allow grievances to fester and become more deep-seated than they would be if we addressed conflicts in a timely and forthright manner? Or do a lot of people here lack the maturity to handle conflict constructively, such that leaders should keep conflicts under wraps whenever possible?

Put another way, was my mistake keeping silent about TSP for so long, or was it breaking that silence now?

As a general rule: the sooner the better.

 

[Rach]

I'm wondering if I did harm by starting this thread.

What lesson should I learn? Does confidentiality allow grievances to fester and become more deep-seated than they would be if we addressed conflicts in a timely and forthright manner? Or do a lot of people here lack the maturity to handle conflict constructively, such that leaders should keep conflicts under wraps whenever possible?

Put another way, was my mistake keeping silent about TSP for so long, or was it breaking that silence now?

As a general rule: the sooner the better.

Ewww <_<