To Award or Not to Award

Lime

Lime Green At Last
Deputy Minister
Citizen
To Award or Not to Award
Senate Debates Darcness's Ovation
By Lime


In her final speech to the region as First Minister, Dax awarded three individuals including nominating Senator Darcness for an Ovation. In her speech, Dax spoke of Darcness’s service in all three branches of government serving as a President, Vice President, Cabinet Minister, Justice and Senator. Dax also spoke of Darcness’s work as an admin stating that “he's MOST notably served our region as an admin.” Many citizens congratulated Darcness in response to Dax’s speech with most calling it a deserving honour and this suggested that his confirmation in the Senate would pass easily. However, his nomination for an Ovation has received a more even-handed response from the Senate.

While the first five Senators to speak after Darcness’s nomination were supportive of the Ovation, Senator Sopo took a different stance. He argued that the region has firmly made sure that the Admin Team and Outside of Character (OOC) matters are made separate from In Character (IC) matters, including the work of our roleplay government, and therefore this should extend to our awards as well. He noted that Dax’s primary motivate for nominating Darcness was because of his work as an admin and while Sopo made clear that he highly valued Darcness’s work as an admin, he argued that the OCC/IC divide must be clearly maintained and that therefore any consideration of Darcness for an ovation should be based on his IC work and not his work as an admin. Sopo even provided a short Discord transcript where Darcness himself says “Most of my 'important' stuff is OOC. Getting an IC honor for that would be weird.” Sopo then hinted at his opposition at awarding the Ovation, stating “I don't think Darc's in-character work has yet seen its peak.”

Following Senator Sopo’s comments, Senator Prim said that he was still in favour of the Ovation, saying that he considered awarding Darcness an Ovation during his term as Chief of State. He did, however, concede that if Darcness himself did not believe his IC actions were deserving of an award then that discussion should be allowed. Senator Calvin Coolidge admitted that he felt “hesitant” at giving an IC award for OOC actions but argued that this has precedent, highlighting Chief of State Pichtonia awarding the entire Admin Team the Order of Republica when he served as First Minister. He stated that he was willing to have a discussion about ending this precedent but argued that Darcness’s IC actions were still deserving enough of an Ovation. First Minister Dax then repeated many of the points Senator Calvin had made, arguing that precedent for this existed, highlighting the actions of former First Minister Pichtonia, while also stating that the Ovation of r3n was largely based around his work as an admin. She then argued that to end this precedent during Darcness’s nomination and only recognising him for his political actions would result in a “lost opportunity to celebrate his many, many contributions.”

Senator Deepest House argued that the cases brought up as precedent were historical outliners and that overall, such a nomination for an IC award based mainly upon OOC actions was unusual. However, he also argued that Darcness had served his political career with distinction and while he questioned if an Ovation was being granted too early in Darcness’s career, he said he would not oppose granting Dracness an Ovation. Senator Darcness himself took to the floor after Senator Deepest House and gave a dramatic first line, stating “I think awards for administrative work can be... dangerous.” He argued that the nomination by Pichtonia was “borderline” acceptable because the award went to a group rather than one individual. Referring to the Ovation of r3n he highlighted that since r3n’s Ovation the Admin Team has been far clearer on the IC/OCC divide and that while he himself likely would have voted in favour of r3n’s Ovation at the time, had such an Ovation been proposed today he would be unsure if he would vote in favour of it. He concluded by reminding Senators that both he and r3n had completed great political work within the region as well as their work as admins and stated that he was open to questions that Senators may have regarding his political work.

Speaker Lloenflys is currently the last Senator to comment on the nomination. He told the Senate floor that he did not see a clear black and white line between IC and OOC, and that both his IC and OOC personas were the same person. While he stated that he understood why some players within the region wanted a clear line between IC and OOC especially with regards to admin work, he argued that Darcness’s work as an admin was “no less an element of our [IC] experience as the maintenance guy who keeps the lights on in the United States Senate is.” Therefore, he argued an IC award such as an Ovation was acceptable as recognition of OOC work. He concluded his time on the Senate floor by stating that he would vote in favour of awarding Darcness an Ovation.

EuroWeekly has reviewed the current discussion within the Senate surrounding Darcness’s Ovation and has ranked each Senator on how likely they are to vote in favour of awarding the Ovation.

Predictions
Solid AyeLean AyeAbstainLean NayNay
Lloenflys
Calvin Coolidge
Prim
Peeps
Olde Delaware
Deepest House
Rotasu
DarcnessSopo

Speaker Lloenflys has said on the Senate floor that he will vote in favour of the Ovation while both Senators Calvin Coolidge and Prim have indirectly made clear that they will vote in favour. Senators Peeps and Olde Delaware have not commented since Senator Sopo raised his concerns, however both stated that they would vote in favour when the Ovation was first proposed, and it seems unlikely that they will have changed their minds. Senator Deepest House has said that he would not oppose the Ovation, but he has not said that he would vote in favour of the Ovation. Because he has not directly said he would in favour of the Ovation and overall he appears neutral towards it, we cannot rule out an “Abstain” vote from Senator Deepest House, and while we believe he will likely vote in favour we are not confident enough to place him in the “Solid Aye” category. Senator Rotasu has not spoken on the Senate floor regarding the Ovation however has liked the comments in favour of the Ovation made by Speaker Lloenflys. Therefore, we find it very likely that Senator Rotasu will vote in favour, but we cannot make a full prediction until Senator Rotasu comments on the matter himself. Senator Darcness, following tradition, has stated that he will vote “Abstain” on his nomination, placing him solidly on the “Abstain” ranking. Senator Sopo appears to be the only Senator that may oppose the Ovation. While he has not explicitly said how he will vote, he has raised concerns about the nomination and hinted that he would oppose it. However, he could still abstain from the vote and has not made explicitly clear that he will oppose the Ovation.

EuroWeekly will continue to monitor the discussion on the Senate floor and will inform our readers of any major developments.
 
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he considered awarding Darcness an Ovation during his term as First Minister
I was Chief of State, not FM. Both positions can award ovations.
 
Great article over a contentious issue. I'm torn, personally. I understand why we want to give awards to folks for their admin work -- especially Darc who drops stuff at a hat to help us. But would it be acceptable to campaign for office on being an admin? I know Calvin slammed me during the campaign just for saying I'd post stats I can see as an admin. I feel it's a slippery slope, and if I were in the Senate I'd have a very difficult time voting aye.
 
he considered awarding Darcness an Ovation during his term as First Minister
I was Chief of State, not FM. Both positions can award ovations.
Whoops! That's it fixed now, thanks for pointing it out.

Thanks for the comments so far. I think I mostly agree with the comments Calvin made in the Senate. I do feel hesitant about this, but I think I would likely vote in favour. I think now is an appropriate time to have a discussion about potentially ending IC awards for OOC actions.
 
So I don’t think i’ve seen it anywhere but what is Darc’s IC resume? It’s not in his sig and I’m struggling to remember the depth of his IC roles beyond the VP-> President term and an undetermined number of Senate terms.
 
Great article over a contentious issue. I'm torn, personally. I understand why we want to give awards to folks for their admin work -- especially Darc who drops stuff at a hat to help us. But would it be acceptable to campaign for office on being an admin? I know Calvin slammed me during the campaign just for saying I'd post stats I can see as an admin. I feel it's a slippery slope, and if I were in the Senate I'd have a very difficult time voting aye.
I would also be hesitant and would likely vote nay. Additionally while I'm not very familiar with Darc's IC political resume, it feels a bit too early to award an Ovation.

Then again, I find it odd to award any Ovations to someone before they are retired. And that's always been a grey area, i.e. when are they actually retired and who stays that way besides me? ?
 
Great article over a contentious issue. I'm torn, personally. I understand why we want to give awards to folks for their admin work -- especially Darc who drops stuff at a hat to help us. But would it be acceptable to campaign for office on being an admin? I know Calvin slammed me during the campaign just for saying I'd post stats I can see as an admin. I feel it's a slippery slope, and if I were in the Senate I'd have a very difficult time voting aye.
I would also be hesitant and would likely vote nay. Additionally while I'm not very familiar with Darc's IC political resume, it feels a bit too early to award an Ovation.

Then again, I find it odd to award any Ovations to someone before they are retired. And that's always been a grey area, i.e. when are they actually retired and who stays that way besides me? ?
I think, for me, the criteria need to be... can we reasonably believe that this person has reached the pinnacle of their political career and have they made a lasting impact on the region? Retirement is squishy because so many people (like me) don't stay retired. If someone has been president (successfully), has created some lasting impact on the region (important diplomatic relationships/orgs, successful long-term project, exceptional service over time)... I think in those cases we could assume someone both deserves an ovation and has peaked. I am VERY hesitant to award an ovation to someone who still has room to grow and achieve in terms of IC politics. Obviously that's all pretty subjective, but that's to be expected.
 
Just now catching up with this stuff but if Darc doesn't think he's worthy of it/wants it then I feel like the Senate shouldn't award it. Personally, with that in mind if I were a Senator I would probably vote against it.

That said, I understand this is a touchy subject because Darc has put in a fuck ton of legwork in Europeia through being an Administrator and keeping our technical stuff updated. He deserves credit and recognition for that, but I'm not sure that an in game award is (a) fitting or (b) does it justice. As mentioned in this thread, I don't think Darc has really hit his peak in terms of accomplishments in Europeia. Unlike lots of us who are, let's be honest, pretty much burnt out has-beens at this time (I have precisely 0 interest in ever running for high office again lol) Darc still has lots of room to be able to cement a legacy.

Also, not to be too sappy here, but when I think of someone being awarded an Ovation, I try to think of the natural fit for what their forum would be named. For Darc, I'm not really sure what it would be because he doesn't really have a natural legacy outside of Admin stuff, which is already taken by r3n. Maybe Comms? Idk

Anyway, tl;dr Darc has done an absolute shitload for this community but giving him an IC award for it seems to not earnestly address what he does and continues to do
 
So I don’t think i’ve seen it anywhere but what is Darc’s IC resume? It’s not in his sig and I’m struggling to remember the depth of his IC roles beyond the VP-> President term and an undetermined number of Senate terms.
Some would say that's enough of a reason to vote 'No' all on it's own. HCs should be forehead-slappingly obvious. On the other hand, as I mentioned in the Senate thread, I can certainly understand how IC can be overshadowed by OOC. Anyway, since you asked, here goes.

Positions:
  1. President
  2. Vice President x3 (Aex, Calvin, Rach AKA Solorni)
  3. Minister of Communications x3
    • Got fired once... sometimes trying new things doesn't work.
  4. Minister of Foreign Affairs x2
    • Negotiated a Treaty of Friendship with Osiris
  5. Attorney General x2
  6. Senator x3
  7. Justice x3
  8. Member of the EAAC for... a long time

Presidential Awards are in my signature, although the last one was for Admin stuff, so it wouldn't count here.
 
I mean based off that resume I definetly think that it would be passable to award the ovation. It's at-least comparable to Kuramia's in terms of executive experience.
 
First Minister Dax then repeated many of the points Senator Calvin had made, arguing that precedent for this existed, highlighting the actions of former First Minister Pichtonia, while also stating that the Ovation of r3n was largely based around his work as an admin. She then argued that to end this precedent during Darcness’s nomination and only recognising him for his political actions would result in a “lost opportunity to celebrate his many, many contributions.”
Referring to the Ovation of r3n he highlighted that since r3n’s Ovation the Admin Team has been far clearer on the IC/OCC divide and that while he himself likely would have voted in favour of r3n’s Ovation at the time, had such an Ovation been proposed today he would be unsure if he would vote in favour of it. He concluded by reminding Senators that both he and r3n had completed great political work within the region as well as their work as admins and stated that he was open to questions that Senators may have regarding his political work.

In relation to r3naissanc3r's Ovation, it is important to underline that the view that his ovation "was largely based around his work as an admin" is incorrect. Kraketopia's request for an Ovation does reference his position as an administrator, but that was just one of several contributions noted. The request additionally cited his work as a presidential adviser, his contributions to interior and foreign affairs, and the technical programmes that he developed and continues to maintain for the benefit of the region. In relation to the latter, a distinction can be drawn between a citizen providing technical services for core regional functions (which r3n continues to do as a non-admin) and membership of the OOC administrative team. The Administrative Bureau is appropriately named after r3naissanc3r, but that should not be the only context in which he is remembered.

Even without considering his role as an a as an administrator in any way, r3naissanc3r is not merely well-qualified for an Ovation, but outstandingly well-qualified even by the standards of the others honoured after serving as President. If we had to select a single individual to be credited alone for both our internal and external successes as a region from 2011 to 2017, he would be the only remotely plausible choice. His advice in the areas of foreign affairs, interior policy and WA affairs, alongside his technical contributions to our recruitment, statistical, on-site, WA and military programmes, shaped our approach immeasurably in all these areas. He is the premier architect of the strategic and practical means through which we grew internally and advanced our interests abroad. As his WASC commendation states, he was the principal author of the Independent Manifesto - which codified the principles behind our post-2011 foreign policy - and was "the primary diplomatic advisor to successive Presidents in Europeia for three years", in our most successful period externally. His political and governmental contributions to our region were of the highest order.

For clarity, I am commenting purely on the merits of r3naissanc3r's Ovation and I am not making any comment on Darcness's proposed Ovation.
 
I concur with Onder. R3n's work behind the scenes in shaping regional policy cannot be understated. He was a huge influence in both interior and foreign affairs for many years, even when not holding an official position in the government. Something that was periodically recognized by him being appointed to cabinets as a Chief of Staff or, in one case, Minister of Penguins. But even when he wasn't in the cabinet, he was still an ever present force providing advice and guidance.
 
He is probably, by a landslide, the most influential person never to be president.

One thing that has not been common for ovations and triumphs but really should have been is a presentation by the nominator of why the person is worthy of the nomination, including resume and main accomplishments, so we have a record for anyone looking back. Certainly for some of the early players who received ovations that have been retired for years, its difficult for newer members to discern why they deserved that honor. Though arguably some (Swak) were more deserving than others (Asperta)...
 
Certainly for some of the early players who received ovations that have been retired for years, its difficult for newer members to discern why they deserved that honor.
This is exactly what I replied on the Ovation survey on the "Who doesn't deserve an ovation?" question. I don't think anyone doesn't deserve one, but I definitely think there are some older HCs from years back who newer people might not realize why they were ovated and the more retired and absent HCs we accumulate, the more "detached" from reality the HC status might seem. We need someone who knew them to "personify" or "personalize" these older HCs a bit more and explain what these HCs contributions were to the region for newer people, imo.

@HEM
@Sopo

Could be a good ENN article?
 
Certainly for some of the early players who received ovations that have been retired for years, its difficult for newer members to discern why they deserved that honor.
This is exactly what I replied on the Ovation survey on the "Who doesn't deserve an ovation?" question. I don't think anyone doesn't deserve one, but I definitely think there are some older HCs from years back who newer people might not realize why they were ovated and the more retired and absent HCs we accumulate, the more "detached" from reality the HC status might seem. We need someone who knew them to "personify" or "personalize" these older HCs a bit more and explain what these HCs contributions were to the region for newer people, imo.

@HEM
@Sopo

Could be a good ENN article?
Not 100% description of each person, but Calvin did post this: https://forums.europeians.com/index.php?threads/honored-citizens-a-primer.10049284/
 
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