A Taste of Skizz #24

Gatesville’s occupation of Osiris has been the top story in the NationStates world for some time. There hasn’t been much discussion of it in Europeia. I thought I would chime in with my two cents. At my request, President Cerian previewed this article and confirmed that it contained no classified information, but all opinions herein are strictly my own (which should be clear as you read on).

Osiris has never been a typical game-created region (GCR). The creation of Osiris and Balder two years ago triggered a land rush without parallel in modern times. A diverse group of game players secured Balder. We were friendly with the founders, and several Europeian dual citizens were among their ranks, but we never did much to wield influence over there. As a consequence, Balder was a weak, fledging region for quite some time, but over time an indigenous community took root there and grew into one of the more vibrant communities in the GCRs. We recently recognized this development by entering into a treaty with Balder. Even so, however, we do not have significant influence in Balder – whatever influence we do have is mostly due to the personal ties many of us have with Cerebella, who is of course a big wheel in several of our other treatied allies also.

While Balder was going through the growing pains of a small, independent community, Osiris fell into the orbit of the United Defenders League. The UDL was a formidable force in NationStates at that time, so it is hardly surprising that Osiris enjoyed much more early activity than Balder. Under the leadership of UDL stalwarts such as my friends Oliver and Earth, Osiris was widely seen as the more successful of the two new GCRs. Over time, however, the hegemonic relationship took a toll on Osiris. The region made spirited efforts to break away from this domination, but nothing happened in Osiris without the UDL’s blessing – which we learned to our chagrin when we poured much effort into talks with Osiris a couple terms ago. It is not surprising, then, that the UDL’s decline in influence was soon followed by a loss of Osiran sovereignty. Our President has spoken publicly of this, condemning the occupation by Gatesville while also chiding the leaders of Osiris for failing to build stronger institutions.

Despite these misgivings about Osiris's leadership, the President reaffirmed Europeia’s commitment to GCR sovereignty and committed Europeian support to a long-term effort to undermine Gatesville’s occupation and return the prior Osiran regime to power. This was a major commitment on his part for two reasons. First, because the occupiers were able to install a long-time citizen as delegate, restoring the former regime would be far more difficult than, say, liberating TSP following Milograd’s illegal coup there. Second, some of our traditional allies had sided with Gatesville – they are at war with the UDL, and as a satellite of the UDL, they presumably felt that Osiris was a fair target. I supported the President's decision – however bad the prior, quasi-hegemonic regime was in Osiris, outright occupation by Gatesville was much worse.

As time has worn on, however, I have begun to question the wisdom of such a long-term commitment. For one thing, the “liberation” effort (if that’s the right word) is led by people who are either feckless or who hold us in contempt – Biyah, Cormac, Mahaj, and so on. I like Cormac well enough, but I question whether he can stay on the same side long enough to see a project like this through, let alone persuade others to commit to the cause. As for Biyah and Mahaj, I have no use for them at all. Indeed, if memory serves, Biyah himself was involved in a prior effort to usurp the government of Osiris – and now he wants us to commit substantial resources to a long-term effort to restore that government to power? And Mahaj, of course, is the present personification of UDL hegemony in Osiris – why should we work to replace one hegemon with another?

So far, President Cerian has stayed the course. I respect his decision. In my own time as President, I worked to make GCR sovereignty a cornerstone of our foreign policy, and I’m glad to see the current government taking our commitment to that policy seriously. At some point, however, we need to make a sober calculation of self-interest. It is far from clear to me that continuing to support a less than effective regime that is dominated by people who dislike us, while our traditional allies stand on the other side, is in Europeia’s best interests. And at the end of the day, the purpose of an assertive, independent foreign policy is to advance our best interests, not to right every wrong in the NationStates world.

That’s where I stand. I hope this stimulates discussion.
 
Opposing the colonisation of Gatesville does not necessarily lead to intending to prop up and continually support the deposed Government. If it is ineffectual and weak, it should be replaced - but from within, and free from the yoke of Gatesville's top-down force.
 
I agree with you, Anumia, though I fully appreciate where Skizzy is coming from, even if I don't agree with his conclusions. That said, I'm not sure any reform is likely to come out of this - Biyah is a hero of the Kemetic Republic now, leader of their war effort, and the inclusion of UIAF on the side of Gatesville has likely only strengthened the UDL faction.
 
Anumia said:
Opposing the colonisation of Gatesville does not necessarily lead to intending to prop up and continually support the deposed Government. If it is ineffectual and weak, it should be replaced - but from within, and free from the yoke of Gatesville's top-down force.
Of course we will continue to oppose the GV occupation. The question is whether we should devote resources to that opposition. The answer to that question depends on many factors -- including the quality of the deposed government and the prospects of reforming it.
 
Surely the less effort we put into this, the less able we are to influence a strong reformation effort after freedom.
 
Anumia said:
Surely the less effort we put into this, the less able we are to influence a strong reformation effort after freedom.
Also something pretty important to consider.
 

The Aezean Combine's alleged involvement on Gatesville's side, if confirmed, would also weigh in favor of staying the course in the short run.

If the AC is truly involved, I hope our allies who are supporting Gatesville will withdraw. We respect their hard-line stance toward the UDL, but not working with forum crashers is a matter of bedrock values -- if our allies are willing to go there, that's a bigger issue than whatever happens to Osiris.
 
I must say, of all the pieces I've read on the Osiris affair, that is one of the best written. Well done ^_^

I could comment, but I'm afraid to :p
 
Well one thing I agree with is that the AC are not people you would trust lightly. They do go out of their way to cause mischief and that can't be denied. I still haven't been given any proof relating to the forum destruction allegations or even the names of the regions which were affected. The latter should be the easiest thing to show me but anyone I ask gives me a silly response attacking my motive for asking.. If I had proof I would object to their involvement, simple as, but all I get shouted at me is propaganda. Which is ironic because that's usually my job...

As for GV holding Osiris, I personally believe your estimation to be incorrect that the old regime is better than the new. Perhaps in a principled way it could be justifiable, but in a purely practical way it would be better to find a third party candidate than hand it back to Cormac et al if you were so against GV. Let's face it, many of the former regime are not so pure as they profess and many consider Osiris as little more than a notch on the bedpost rather than a home to fight for. I'll happily concede that if I were to take a GCR delegacy, I would find it difficult to call the region home either. My homes were only ever UCRs, but that is only my perspective and I do appreciate that some feel for GCR's the same way I do for Europeia and Gatesville, even some on the old Osirian regime. The old regime has suffered a lot of criticism from people on their side notably in Cerian's statement from Europeia and recently in Westwind's comments on why he's breaking off the TWP-GV alliance - those criticisms are big warning signs for why the region should not be returned to the old regime.

Coming back to GV as a bad occupier, GV has historically a damn good record for helping regions it has given protectorate status. Change and Ireland Australia Axis were two former franchise regions that had 300+ nations and an autonomous government at their height to say nothing of the 10-20 other franchise regions which had between 10 and 50 nations with strong activity levels. Many people point at the coups GV has been involved in, but those circumstances differ because GV didn't take over or give the region a protectorate style status - it just propped up the rogue-delegate-of-the-month for a bit and left them to their own devices (usually in the name of sparking activity above other justifications). So I honestly believe that a GV protected Osiris is a better future than handing it back to the silliness of the former regime.

Proof of that is seen on the new Osiris forum. There's a cabinet and a Senate debating a new charter with only 4 Gatesvillians present. Hell, they're even planning a vote on the COPS treaty at the weekend! Based on the AC allegations, the success of such a vote could force the delegate to eject the AC if the allegations are true. If I was the autocrat-in-charge, I wouldn't allow such a vote in case the allegations were subsequently proven. Is that not a sign of progress for Osiris that GV isn't pressing on them?

From your own evaluation Skizzy, I'm sure you would prefer a third party (preferably a native) to emerge?
 
I think a third party is kinda where the article leans a bit. That said though, whether it is a third party or a reformed old version, it should be their determination, and not a top-down imposition of a new order from Gatesville after the nation handover.
 
Only Four? That's blatantly false. The native Osirians aren't taking part in the new region's government. The owning of a GCR by any UCR is never good, and to believe that Gatesville is there with pure motives is frankly absurd. You don't take over a previously independent regime and lock the most important position away from election to help the region. You did not take over an inactive or ineffective region. You took over a region with problems (but what region doesn't have problems, especially the younger ones), yes, but that doesn't make the Usirian regime a better one for the region. If Gatesville wanted to do right by Osiris, they'd be putting such a third party in place, if they really thought the first one was so bad. They wouldn't be arguing the completely BS line that they were sticking around because they were attacked (and they attacked just as much) and they wouldn't STILL be using the discredited and disproven line that there was voter fraud. And, even more importantly, you wouldn't put a man like JAL, whose resume consists of failed regions and massive purges, in charge.

I appreciate, as a Gatesvillian, you have a different perspective, but owning Osiris as a colony will never make it better, in the long-run. At some point, the region has to become independent, or it will languish and suffer.

Besides, who died and made Gatesville the arbiter of what Osiris should be like? Oh, right, TDE decided to troll the region and handed his WA off to Gatesville.
 
Interesting article, Skizzy. Admittedly I'm not the best informed of events in Osiris from all angles, but I certainly can tell how complicated this issue is.

I greatly value our pro-sovereignty stance...but I'm not sure if we can feasibly commit long-term to ensuring a return to sovereignty for Osiris. Now if the chance arises for us to liberate the region, that's great. But we can't unseat Gatesville's influence with WA units and well-timed jumps; that won't remove their influence over forum members.

Self-interest sometimes must trump foreign policy...even if that's a terrible choice to make.
 
Cerian Quilor said:
Only Four? That's blatantly false. The native Osirians aren't taking part in the new region's government. The owning of a GCR by any UCR is never good, and to believe that Gatesville is there with pure motives is frankly absurd. You don't take over a previously independent regime and lock the most important position away from election to help the region. You did not take over an inactive or ineffective region. You took over a region with problems (but what region doesn't have problems, especially the younger ones), yes, but that doesn't make the Usirian regime a better one for the region. If Gatesville wanted to do right by Osiris, they'd be putting such a third party in place, if they really thought the first one was so bad. They wouldn't be arguing the completely BS line that they were sticking around because they were attacked (and they attacked just as much) and they wouldn't STILL be using the discredited and disproven line that there was voter fraud. And, even more importantly, you wouldn't put a man like JAL, whose resume consists of failed regions and massive purges, in charge.

I appreciate, as a Gatesvillian, you have a different perspective, but owning Osiris as a colony will never make it better, in the long-run. At some point, the region has to become independent, or it will languish and suffer.

Besides, who died and made Gatesville the arbiter of what Osiris should be like? Oh, right, TDE decided to troll the region and handed his WA off to Gatesville.
They actually are, some are using false names but they are there, and I can only count four nations who are Gatesvillians. Most of active Gatesville is too focused on the foreign affairs and military end of things to get involved with the actual regime.

As for much of what you said, it doesn't relate to my own comments above.. I didn't comment on the purity of GV's motives nor did I refer to anything related to the motives. My point principally related to the circumstances we're in now.

Also, I don't see it as ownership because if it was there wouldn't be a forum for Osirians to develop their new systems of government and I too agree that eventually it should be fully autonomous.
 
Pope Lexus X said:
From your own evaluation Skizzy, I'm sure you would prefer a third party (preferably a native) to emerge?
The only way a third party with legitimacy could emerge would be through negotiations. Is Gatesville willing to negotiate with the former regime?
 
Pope Lexus X said:
They probably would listen but it depends on what they come up with and how they go about it..
This is the question that needs to be answered: under what conditions would GV agree to withdraw and turn over the delegacy to someone acceptable to the former regime?

The regime doesn't have a huge amount of bargaining power. If GV's demands are reasonable, I expect they will be met.

That said, the key Osirans are all what Unibot would call "cosmopolitans" -- they don't have the same degree of loyalty to Osiris that you have to Gatesville, or that I have to Europeia. Therefore, they're not going to humiliate themselves to get "their" region back. If GV's goal is to make them grovel, I expect those key folks will abandon Osiris and devote their energies elsewhere. In that case, GV will be seen as the worst sort of bully by the great majority of NS players who weren't here for GV's glory days. That's not a good result for anyone.
 
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