A Taste of Skizz #17

The phrase "oral history" is sometimes used by historians to describe an account written from the standpoint of ordinary people, rather than decision makers. There are advantages and disadvantages to oral histories. One obvious disadvantage is that they lack the perspective that can only come from access to the deliberations of decision makers. The advantage is that oral histories are less prone to efforts by decision makers to shape history to their liking.

With the intent of creating an "oral history" of sorts, here is an alternate account of select events in the region over the past several months.

-- Europeia intervenes in The South Pacific on the side of the native government. Oliver, an Admiral in the Europeian Navy at the time, participates on the other side and urges other sailors to do likewise. (Ollie has publicly acknowledged this.) His exact motives are not known, but are likely related to his affiliation with The Rejected Realms, which was one of the key players on the invader side.

-- Around the same time, Ollie leaves the region, ostensibly because of an unrelated dispute over judicial politics that turned nasty. Earth leaves at the same time as Oliver, ostensibly beause of the same dispute. Earth was active in TRR then, but to my knowledge, she has not been publicly accused on these forums of participating on the invader side in TSP.

-- Some time later, Ollie returns to the region. Soon after returning, he stands for Senate. He is -- appropriately -- asked pointed questions about his role in TSP. He is elected. At about the same time, Earth returns and takes a more low-key role, but she eventually agrees to serve in Sopo's administration (first as a Cabinet minister, and later as VP). TSP doesn't come up in the Senate in connection with either of her two confirmation votes.

-- Some time later, there is a nasty dust-up over something that happened on an IRC channel -- something to do with Earth ejecting Seymour from the chat, and people saying mean things about other people, dogs and cats living togther, etc. -- a real s--t show. Earth leaves.

-- At about the same time as the IRC dust-up, it becomes clear that Ollie can't raise any kind of criticism of government without being personally attacked for the TSP thing. In response, I post my account of the TSP affair in the EBC, hoping to clear the air. This triggers an epic s--tstorm. Ollie posts once or twice in that thread, then disappears.

-- Carra, AC and Jusduckria leave at about the same time as Earth and Ollie. To my knowledge, none had any role in TSP. A few other citizens coincidentally disapppear at about this time, but have since returned.

-- A few months later, CSP notifies us that there has been a founder-led "coup" in Kodiak, and we are cutting off relations. On other forums, it is widely reported that the founder's intervention followed alleged admin abuse by the elected President. That elected President was Seymour, and he was specifically accused of banning Earth. (In fairness to Seymour, he has consistently maintained that Earth's banning was inadvertent, and I have no evidence to the contrary.) Maybe CSP knew only part of the story, but opinion in many quarters is not so kind to us -- there are people of good will who believe Seymour acted at Europeia's behest. Given the rhetoric that has come from his Foreign Minister of late, it is not hard to see why.

-- At about the same time, CSP announced that we were breaking treaty ties with Unknown. He cites the departure of Earth as a reason for Unknown's lack of interest in keeping ties with us, with a recent diplomatic dust-up as an ancillary issue. Of course, if you read the actual thread in Unknown (which CSP links in his announcement), it's clear that Unknown's problems had nothing to do with Earth and everything to do with that dust-up, which involved Rachel, NES, and me -- though no one was kind enough to tell me what was going on until after the fact. (Hmm ... maybe criticizing the DEIA makes people think you're disloyal ... )

This is an oral history. I don't claim to have unique truth-telling abilities. There are things I don't know. I do know that beneath the platitudes about "loyalty" that we hear so much, there is a little-discussed agenda being carried out. That lack of discussion may be driven by an understandable desire not to re-live the worst moments of the past year, but there is no way to avoid such re-living so long as our government continues to place those events at the center of its agenda.

Perhaps, after the next election, we can form a government worthy of our new citizens, who have no truck for these old arguments, and whose yeoman's work has provided the foundation for our recent successes. They deserve a vision for the region that isn't rooted in the worst events of the past year.

-----------

As a postscript, I would like to note that one could make some very unfair judgments about Seymour from the foregoing account. I debated whether to include the details concerning him, ultimately deciding that such details were crucial to understanding the story -- and particularly, how that story is viewed outside these forums.

Edit: fixed typo
 
Skizzy Grey said:
-- Europeia intervenes in The South Pacific on the side of the native government. Oliver, an Admiral in the Europeian Navy at the time, participates on the other side and urges other sailors to do likewise. (Ollie has publicly acknowledged this.) His exact motives are not known, but are likely related to his affiliation with The Rejected Realms, which was one of the key players on the invader side.
The seriousness of this should not be underestimated. As a high-ranking officer in our military, Oliver has admitted actively seeking to defeat it. Oliver faced questions on this in his campaign thread, but if you read it, you will see he eventually refused to answer mine, simply saying he wasn't interested in the votes of those who doubted him on the issue. Consequently, neither he nor anyone he worked with in this respect have any justification to complain about the TSP issue subsequently coming up once again: they failed to address it when challenged. This is not something to be swept under the carpet and the TSP incident is more widely reflective of Oliver's attitude to this region.

Skizzy Grey said:
-- A few months later, CSP notifies us that there has been a founder-led "coup" in Kodiak, and we are cutting off relations. On other forums, it is widely reported that the founder's intervention followed alleged admin abuse by the elected President. That elected President was Seymour, and he was specifically accused of banning Earth. (In fairness to Seymour, he has consistently maintained that Earth's banning was inadvertent, and I have no evidence to the contrary.) Maybe CSP knew only part of the story, but opinion in many quarters is not so kind to us -- there are people of good will who believe Seymour acted at Europeia's behest. Given the rhetoric that has come from his Foreign Minister of late, it is not hard to see why.
The alleged admin abuse was highlighted after the coup took place. It is a pretext subsequently selected to justify the coup which was originally rationalised on the basis of activity levels within TKR. The anti-Europeian protest within a limited number of foreign regions (mostly a relatively isolationist clique, linked by personal friendships, in particular IB, AoQ and The Respected Realms, plus The Ascendancy) occurred well before recent statements from the Foreign Minister and was based on solely on the membership of many members of TKR's legitimate Cabinet here rather than any evidence of Europeian infuence. The people (supposedly of good will) you speak of are variously influenced more by friendship with individuals in support of coup than actual facts or are of anti-Europeian motivation for other reason (The Ascendancy's position, for instance, combined as it was with a statement over Unknown, was an opportunist attempt to harm Europeian interests). We should give them no credence.

Skizzy Grey said:
-- At about the same time, CSP announced that we were breaking treaty ties with Unknown. He cites the departure of Earth as a reason for Unknown's lack of interest in keeping ties with us, with a recent diplomatic dust-up as an ancillary issue. Of course, if you read the actual thread in Unknown (which CSP links in his announcement), it's clear that Unknown's problems had nothing to do with Earth and everything to do with that dust-up, which involved Rachel, NES, and me -- though no one was kind enough to tell me what was going on until after the fact. (Hmm ... maybe criticizing the DEIA makes people think you're disloyal ... )
It should be clarified that we did not break treaty ties with Unknown. They broke them with us. The reason CSP cited Earth leaving Europeia as an issue is because Avakael (driving Unknown's reaction on this issue) stated that there was little point in Unknown maintaining relations with Europeia without Earth in Europeia here to influence our domestic politics: that's not the sort of thing you are likely to read and assess in a public thread in Unknown. It is wrong to suggest Unknown's problems had 'everything' to do with the argument which occurred after they raised their concerns. Unknown's problems arose from Avakael (who a matter of days afterwards attempted to defect to the UDL, joining Earth and Oliver who have already done so, so would have every motive to damage Europeia-Unknown relations) persuading their region that Europeia had somehow spied on them over TSP (you are aware of the details of their allegation). This is separate to how the subsequent discussions turned turned out. Unknown didn't specify that their allegation rested solely on what you told Europiea until after they went public, which is presumably why the issue wasn't drawn until your attention at that stage.
 
Skizzy Grey said:
-- Europeia intervenes in The South Pacific on the side of the native government. Oliver, an Admiral in the Europeian Navy at the time, participates on the other side and urges other sailors to do likewise. (Ollie has publicly acknowledged this.) His exact motives are not known, but are likely related to his affiliation with The Rejected Realms, which was one of the key players on the invader side.
The seriousness of this should not be underestimated. As a high-ranking officer in our military, Oliver has admitted actively seeking to defeat it.
I'm not familiar with the military organization / whether or not this act merited a response (you believe it did, but I'd be interested if the Grand Admiral at the time agreed) and in turn whether there was a response by the Navy towards those who did not follow the Navy into TSP (and whether there were explicit orders by the Grand Admiral regarding TSP). I feel that if there were indeed explicit orders by the Grand Admiral, Naval soldiers who chose not to follow them should have been dismissed or demoted. I'm not sure if that's the case with Oliver, which is why I'm raising this point.
 
I'm not sure whether I should give this nonsense the dignity of a response. I expect I will later but for now I will just link to my post here.

I'm sure our newer members don't want to go over the past year with a fine toothed comb to discern what happenned and when, but equally, I doubt they want to be told a pack of lies which totally distorts the reality of what happenned and uses it to push an agenda where defectors are innocent victims of an evil conspiracy - totally detached from the reality of what happenned.

Skizzy, I know you make think, and to an extent it's true, that you think owe your political career here to Earth. And thus it's hard for you to accept the reality of what happenned. But, I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than a moral black hole of falsified events and misleading insinuations - in a fruitless attempt to block out, what must be for you, an inconvenient truth.

She acted with extreme disloyalty to Europeia and treated it very badly. And furthermore she was unprovoked. Europeia did not deserve to be treated the way it was. We can and should expect better from our citizens, and our Leaders.
 
-- Some time later, Ollie returns to the region. Soon after returning, he stands for Senate. He is -- appropriately -- asked pointed questions about his role in TSP. He is elected. At about the same time, Earth returns and takes a more low-key role, but she eventually agrees to serve in Sopo's administration (first as a Cabinet minister, and later as VP). TSP doesn't come up in the Senate in connection with either of her two confirmation votes.

The question to Oliver about TSP in his campaign thread was asked by OnderKelkia. He was not a Senator, and thus the matter did not reach the Senate. I was a Senator but I resolved to let the matter rest, to give them the best chance possible of making a successful return, and to give them the benefit of the doubt over the TSP affair, that we would not see a repeat of such treachery. With retrospect, this was a colossal mistake, and OnderKelkia's judgement that they would defect again, was the correct one.

I was wrong to give them the benefit of the doubt then. It was overly optimistic of me, trying to think the best of people. At least I'm not so utterly deluded I'm still trying to do that now though, against the face of all the evidence!

-- Some time later, there is a nasty dust-up over something that happened on an IRC channel -- something to do with Earth ejecting Seymour from the chat, and people saying mean things about other people, dogs and cats living togther, etc. -- a real s--t show. Earth leaves.

Nothing mean was said to Earth. She ejected Seymour from the regional IRC during a political debate for no legitimate reason - it was obvious she just didn't "like him" and was prepared to bully him with her IRC powers. Her scheme to use her links in Unknown to persuade the Presidential frontrunner that he couldn't make Rachel GA was also uncovered. This made her position politically untenable, and so she ran away from her actions here and abandoned the region for the second time.

-- At about the same time as the IRC dust-up, it becomes clear that Ollie can't raise any kind of criticism of government without being personally attacked for the TSP thing. In response, I post my account of the TSP affair in the EBC, hoping to clear the air. This triggers an epic s--tstorm. Ollie posts once or twice in that thread, then disappears.

I don't recall any of these personal attacks regarding TSP happenning till after your article. And the article post-dated the shitstorm related to the foundation of the Library, and the recruitment of key Europeian members there.

-- Carra, AC and Jusduckria leave at about the same time as Earth and Ollie. To my knowledge, none had any role in TSP. A few other citizens coincidentally disapppear at about this time, but have since returned.

TSP is irrelevant. They had all already gone to the Library, on Earth or Ollie's request, before your article was even written.

-- A few months later, CSP notifies us that there has been a founder-led "coup" in Kodiak, and we are cutting off relations. On other forums, it is widely reported that the founder's intervention followed alleged admin abuse by the elected President. That elected President was Seymour, and he was specifically accused of banning Earth. (In fairness to Seymour, he has consistently maintained that Earth's banning was inadvertent, and I have no evidence to the contrary.) Maybe CSP knew only part of the story, but opinion in many quarters is not so kind to us -- there are people of good will who believe Seymour acted at Europeia's behest. Given the rhetoric that has come from his Foreign Minister of late, it is not hard to see why.

At the time CSPs statement was drafted, indeed for 4 days after the coup was instigated, nothing was known about Earth being banned. It wasn't until 4 days after the coup I myself knew of the alleged admin abuse. And indeed neither did Rykkland himself as can be seen from his statement in this thread. So again, the crux of your argument falls apart. The admin abuse was neither a basis of the coup nor of our Statement on it - because it wasn't known at the time those actions were taken. And therefore the notion that either myself or CSP knew beforehand - is frankly preposterous.

-- At about the same time, CSP announced that we were breaking treaty ties with Unknown. He cites the departure of Earth as a reason for Unknown's lack of interest in keeping ties with us, with a recent diplomatic dust-up as an ancillary issue. Of course, if you read the actual thread in Unknown (which CSP links in his announcement), it's clear that Unknown's problems had nothing to do with Earth and everything to do with that dust-up, which involved Rachel, NES, and me -- though no one was kind enough to tell me what was going on until after the fact.

Haha, nice theory, but again it doesn't sit well with reality. The reality is that the false allegation that Europeia had spied on Unknown which was at the centre of the Treaty repeal - with with you were indeed much embroiled as the alleged spy - was made as a deliberate ploy to break relations with us. Whilst Rachel was a very poor diplomat, the notion that this is entirely Rachel's fault is baloney, because Avakael was determined to fabricate conspiracies to break the alliance. And his motive, the basis for CSP's observation in his announcement was revealed to me by Avakael in a private conversation when he said to me: "it only worked because Earth had a stranglehold over Europeian politics." in relation to Euro-Unknown relations. According to Avakael Unknown could not work with Europeia because it was too democratic and not reliable or committed enough to raiderism, without Earth controlling our military stance for them as she did so effectively for over a year post-Savaer being GA.

And then what did Avakael do? Oh he defected from Unknown to the UDL - where incidentally Earth is Chief of Recruitment. Of course that is just a coincidence, and he wasn't trying to inflict damage on Euro-Unknown relations from Day 1! Of course not, you would have it be entirely my and Rachel's fault - nothing to do with Earth. Haha!

(Hmm ... maybe criticizing the DEIA makes people think you're disloyal ... )

lolwut. :lol:




So there you go. There's a few crucial paragraphs of your so-called "oral history" ripped apart and exposed as the utter fantasies that they are. I trust I either don't need to do it to what remains - or, Onder already has.

I don't think "oral history"'s are your strong point Skizzy. I recommend you will stay away from them in the future. :p
 
I thank Onder for filling in some details on matters that I dealt with in cursory fashion.

I don't remember much about the IRC spat. At the time, I felt it reflected badly on all involved, but I don't recall the factual basis for that conclusion, or who besides Earth and Seymour was involved. I debated leaving it out of this account, but ultimately decided some mention of it was indispensable.

I linked to personal attacks by both you and Anumia in my TSP thread -- go refresh your recollection, chief.

My beef with Kodiak isn't the action taken, but that CSP made a sweeping statement about events there without knowing all the facts. Seymour has admitted mistakes were made in admin matters, so your claim this was a post-hoc rationalization doesn't wash. And as you can tell from the Kodiak thread you linked, the allegations (which I do not necessarily believe) involved more widespread abuse. Earth's connection wouldn't have even mattered if we had more coolly cut ties instead of going off half-cocked without adequate investigation. But she was, and the vendetta that several leaders here have against her is known, and well, people are going to draw certain conclusions. It's pretty much a case study in how not to be influential, yet no one in government (to my knowledge) has admitted that, in retrospect, the situation was handled poorly.

I don't particularly disagree with the parts about Unknown, insofar as I have knowledge. (I haven't discussed NS with Earth much lately.) I stand by my criticism of CSP's statement, but my real beef there is that even though several senior officials here knew I had been accused of "spying," I first read about in Goldenblock. Am I not trusted?

Lastly, I'm a little puzzled about this whole Library thing. I learned it existed when someone here (HEM, perhaps?) wrote about it. Maybe I was simply passed over, but it seems more likely there was no major recruitment efforts. Besides, it never got off the ground, so it doesn't explain the continuing absence of the folks I mentioned (or anyone else).

As for owing my political career to Earth, I don't think there's a controversy there ... I do. Well, to the extent I have a "political career," that is -- I've won exactly one Senate by-election.

 
Skizzy Grey said:
-- Europeia intervenes in The South Pacific on the side of the native government. Oliver, an Admiral in the Europeian Navy at the time, participates on the other side and urges other sailors to do likewise. (Ollie has publicly acknowledged this.) His exact motives are not known, but are likely related to his affiliation with The Rejected Realms, which was one of the key players on the invader side.
The seriousness of this should not be underestimated. As a high-ranking officer in our military, Oliver has admitted actively seeking to defeat it.
I'm not familiar with the military organization / whether or not this act merited a response (you believe it did, but I'd be interested if the Grand Admiral at the time agreed) and in turn whether there was a response by the Navy towards those who did not follow the Navy into TSP (and whether there were explicit orders by the Grand Admiral regarding TSP). I feel that if there were indeed explicit orders by the Grand Admiral, Naval soldiers who chose not to follow them should have been dismissed or demoted. I'm not sure if that's the case with Oliver, which is why I'm raising this point.
There wasn't really a GA -- Griff resigned when Ollie did.
 
I don't remember much about the IRC spat. At the time, I felt it reflected badly on all involved, but I don't recall the factual basis for that conclusion, or who besides Earth and Seymour was involved. I debated leaving it out of this account, but ultimately decided some mention of it was indispensable.

Earth kicked Seymour from the chat because she owned the channel, and was prepared to abuse that position to further her dislike of Seymour. That's all there is to know...

I linked to personal attacks by both you and Anumia in my TSP thread -- go refresh your recollection, chief.

Look, you linked to a post where I said:

My "personal attack" said:
There aren't really any relevant threads with any useful information, cause soon after the incident the President, GA and WAD left the region, and then it was all hushed up because further tension was deemed risky by the new President Skizzy.

Thats all that was said with regards to the TSP incident.

So the truth is this Skizzy: TSP was mentioned nowhere in any public discussion of any nature in Europeia previous to you mentioning it in that thread, and then subsequently on the same day writing that article, and was not the basis for anyone of the several who left the region in late September/early October 2011.


My beef with Kodiak isn't the action taken, but that CSP made a sweeping statement about events there without knowing all the facts. Seymour has admitted mistakes were made in admin matters, so your claim this was a post-hoc rationalization doesn't wash.

No, look, let me spell it out for you in black and white. Neither Rykkland, CSP or me - knew of the alleged admin abuses by Seymour at the time the statement was written, or the time the coup was done and the Kodiak Government overthrown, and the proof of that is here.

And as you can tell from the Kodiak thread you linked, the allegations (which I do not necessarily believe) involved more widespread abuse. Earth's connection wouldn't have even mattered if we had more coolly cut ties instead of going off half-cocked without adequate investigation. But she was, and the vendetta that several leaders here have against her is known, and well, people are going to draw certain conclusions. It's pretty much a case study in how not to be influential, yet no one in government (to my knowledge) has admitted that, in retrospect, the situation was handled poorly.

Earth wasn't even mentioned in the TKR statement by CSP, and as I've already explained the alleged admin abuses were not part of the Rykkland's reasoning for the coup at the point we made the statement because he did not know about it till 4 days after the legitimate Government was removed. Thus the Earth connection is irrelevant to the statement and approach we took. We had no idea that such abuses would be uncovered after the coup. Understand?

I don't particularly disagree with the parts about Unknown, insofar as I have knowledge. (I haven't discussed NS with Earth much lately.) I stand by my criticism of CSP's statement, but my real beef there is that even though several senior officials here knew I had been accused of "spying," I first read about in Goldenblock. Am I not trusted?

I think Onder made this clear it was nothing to do with you not being trusted when he said: "Unknown didn't specify that their allegation rested solely on what you told Europiea until after they went public, which is presumably why the issue wasn't drawn until your attention at that stage."

Lastly, I'm a little puzzled about this whole Library thing. I learned it existed when someone here (HEM, perhaps?) wrote about it. Maybe I was simply passed over, but it seems more likely there was no major recruitment efforts. Besides, it never got off the ground, so it doesn't explain the continuing absence of the folks I mentioned (or anyone else).

No, there were recruitment efforts. Perhaps, some basic observance on your part would have made this obvious that Europeian members were brought there deliberately and explicitely marketed the benefits of the region, very probably alongside a "healthy" dose of badmouthing Europeia.

Whilst you personally in your application you said something which shows you were not recruited:

Skizzy said:
How did you find The Library?: Someone in Europeia pitched a fit that Ollie and Earthie had started a new region. Laughing.gif

Other people, made more than apparent the nature of their "finding" of the Library:

Abbey said:
How did you find The Library?: Prodding from Ollie.

Jusduckria said:
How did you find The Library?: Ollie pointed out the benefits, and I was like "Sold!"

PASD said:
How did you find The Library?: Earthie

Guy said:
How did you find The Library?: Umm, Earth poked me about it. Again. And again. And again. Razz.gif

Carracalla said:
How did you find The Library?: Ollie pointed me in the right direction

As for owing my political career to Earth, I don't think there's a controversy there ... I do. Well, to the extent I have a "political career," that is -- I've won exactly one Senate by-election.

And of course, more relevantly, the election you won as the second half of her Presidential ticket.
 
Skizzy Grey said:
-- Europeia intervenes in The South Pacific on the side of the native government. Oliver, an Admiral in the Europeian Navy at the time, participates on the other side and urges other sailors to do likewise. (Ollie has publicly acknowledged this.) His exact motives are not known, but are likely related to his affiliation with The Rejected Realms, which was one of the key players on the invader side.
The seriousness of this should not be underestimated. As a high-ranking officer in our military, Oliver has admitted actively seeking to defeat it.
I'm not familiar with the military organization / whether or not this act merited a response (you believe it did, but I'd be interested if the Grand Admiral at the time agreed) and in turn whether there was a response by the Navy towards those who did not follow the Navy into TSP (and whether there were explicit orders by the Grand Admiral regarding TSP). I feel that if there were indeed explicit orders by the Grand Admiral, Naval soldiers who chose not to follow them should have been dismissed or demoted. I'm not sure if that's the case with Oliver, which is why I'm raising this point.
There wasn't really a GA -- Griff resigned when Ollie did.
Which was after the TSP military activites mentioned occurred. I mean jesus wept Skizzy. Whether or not you in some sort of coma throughout all this... for goodness sake stop trying to find ways of making Oliver/Earth look completely innocent in all this. It just looks gradually more and more delusional and absurd... and it's sad to watch...
 
I'm on my phone so can't do the extended response I want to do - however I think that regardless of whatever else they both did, it's unfair to demonise them for founding a region and doing recruitment among friends for it. I know that if I was to found a region I'd do the same. I'll address various bits of this properly later.
 
I'm not sure how anyone who didn't bring a preconceived notion to this thread would conclude I was an apologist for Ollie and Earth. I thought what I said about Ollie was pretty damning -- maybe not damning enough for tastes, but the facts speak for themselves, imo. As for Earth, I deliberately said little -- I'm not familiar with some facts, and what little I know of her motivations comes from private convos, which will remain so.

And NES, Dre's question about the GA inquired why no punishments were handed out. In that
connection, my answer was responsive -- Dre can read through the lines enough to know Griff was unlikely to have intervened timely (assuming he knew -- the TSP operation was still ongoing when Griff resigned, and a lot of us only learned about the shenanigans later).

My comments on Kodiak were a criticism of how the communication of our action there was handled. I mean, would you advise CSP to release that statement in retrospect, knowing what we now know? I hope not. And if not, we should study what went wrong and what lessons should be learned. (Mind you, I don't think the decision itself was a bad one -- but especially in a game that's close to 100% communication, the communication is nearly as important as the decision itself.)
 
Oh my god, this is stupid. Everyone knows I'm not thrilled about the Library etc situation, but...today is today. Not yesterday.

Who likes ice cream?
 
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