A Taste of Skizz #17

The phrase "oral history" is sometimes used by historians to describe an account written from the standpoint of ordinary people, rather than decision makers. There are advantages and disadvantages to oral histories. One obvious disadvantage is that they lack the perspective that can only come from access to the deliberations of decision makers. The advantage is that oral histories are less prone to efforts by decision makers to shape history to their liking.

With the intent of creating an "oral history" of sorts, here is an alternate account of select events in the region over the past several months.

-- Europeia intervenes in The South Pacific on the side of the native government. Oliver, an Admiral in the Europeian Navy at the time, participates on the other side and urges other sailors to do likewise. (Ollie has publicly acknowledged this.) His exact motives are not known, but are likely related to his affiliation with The Rejected Realms, which was one of the key players on the invader side.

-- Around the same time, Ollie leaves the region, ostensibly because of an unrelated dispute over judicial politics that turned nasty. Earth leaves at the same time as Oliver, ostensibly beause of the same dispute. Earth was active in TRR then, but to my knowledge, she has not been publicly accused on these forums of participating on the invader side in TSP.

-- Some time later, Ollie returns to the region. Soon after returning, he stands for Senate. He is -- appropriately -- asked pointed questions about his role in TSP. He is elected. At about the same time, Earth returns and takes a more low-key role, but she eventually agrees to serve in Sopo's administration (first as a Cabinet minister, and later as VP). TSP doesn't come up in the Senate in connection with either of her two confirmation votes.

-- Some time later, there is a nasty dust-up over something that happened on an IRC channel -- something to do with Earth ejecting Seymour from the chat, and people saying mean things about other people, dogs and cats living togther, etc. -- a real s--t show. Earth leaves.

-- At about the same time as the IRC dust-up, it becomes clear that Ollie can't raise any kind of criticism of government without being personally attacked for the TSP thing. In response, I post my account of the TSP affair in the EBC, hoping to clear the air. This triggers an epic s--tstorm. Ollie posts once or twice in that thread, then disappears.

-- Carra, AC and Jusduckria leave at about the same time as Earth and Ollie. To my knowledge, none had any role in TSP. A few other citizens coincidentally disapppear at about this time, but have since returned.

-- A few months later, CSP notifies us that there has been a founder-led "coup" in Kodiak, and we are cutting off relations. On other forums, it is widely reported that the founder's intervention followed alleged admin abuse by the elected President. That elected President was Seymour, and he was specifically accused of banning Earth. (In fairness to Seymour, he has consistently maintained that Earth's banning was inadvertent, and I have no evidence to the contrary.) Maybe CSP knew only part of the story, but opinion in many quarters is not so kind to us -- there are people of good will who believe Seymour acted at Europeia's behest. Given the rhetoric that has come from his Foreign Minister of late, it is not hard to see why.

-- At about the same time, CSP announced that we were breaking treaty ties with Unknown. He cites the departure of Earth as a reason for Unknown's lack of interest in keeping ties with us, with a recent diplomatic dust-up as an ancillary issue. Of course, if you read the actual thread in Unknown (which CSP links in his announcement), it's clear that Unknown's problems had nothing to do with Earth and everything to do with that dust-up, which involved Rachel, NES, and me -- though no one was kind enough to tell me what was going on until after the fact. (Hmm ... maybe criticizing the DEIA makes people think you're disloyal ... )

This is an oral history. I don't claim to have unique truth-telling abilities. There are things I don't know. I do know that beneath the platitudes about "loyalty" that we hear so much, there is a little-discussed agenda being carried out. That lack of discussion may be driven by an understandable desire not to re-live the worst moments of the past year, but there is no way to avoid such re-living so long as our government continues to place those events at the center of its agenda.

Perhaps, after the next election, we can form a government worthy of our new citizens, who have no truck for these old arguments, and whose yeoman's work has provided the foundation for our recent successes. They deserve a vision for the region that isn't rooted in the worst events of the past year.

-----------

As a postscript, I would like to note that one could make some very unfair judgments about Seymour from the foregoing account. I debated whether to include the details concerning him, ultimately deciding that such details were crucial to understanding the story -- and particularly, how that story is viewed outside these forums.

Edit: fixed typo
 
I'm not sure how anyone who didn't bring a preconceived notion to this thread would conclude I was an apologist for Ollie and Earth. I thought what I said about Ollie was pretty damning -- maybe not damning enough for tastes, but the facts speak for themselves, imo. As for Earth, I deliberately said little -- I'm not familiar with some facts, and what little I know of her motivations comes from private convos, which will remain so.

The facts speak for themself. The context is that you said "people who felt entitled to treat their fellow citizens with contempt; that cost us talented, productive citizens" hurt us more than people with "problems with loyalty".

I, think that is wholly wrong. And I ask of you one final time - to justify your assertion that Earth or Oliver were treated with contempt, and that was the basis for them leaving. I ask you to pinpoint exactly who is guilty of treating them with contempt. If you cannot do this, you must admit they were not treated with contempt at all, and they acted with spite and disloyalty to Europeia, because they did not respect the region when it did not conform to their personal interests, even though they were universally treated like royalty here - right up to, and even after, their actions against Europeia.

I've told you the facts, on numerous occassions, including posts in #16 and #17 articles, and you refuse to accept them. That they both acted against Europeian interests and inflicted damage on the region through their actions - and that they were unprovoked and unjustified in doing so. It doesn't matter that she is your friend. She was in the wrong. Not me. Anyone with any kind of integrity and clear thinking can see this. How many times do I need to repeat this for you to get that through your head?

And NES, Dre's question about the GA inquired why no punishments were handed out. In that
connection, my answer was responsive -- Dre can read through the lines enough to know Griff was unlikely to have intervened timely (assuming he knew -- the TSP operation was still ongoing when Griff resigned, and a lot of us only learned about the shenanigans later).

Let's face it, Griff just does what Earth tells him to anyway, he was never going to "intervene" to stop Ollie even if he could have. :lol:

My comments on Kodiak were a criticism of how the communication of our action there was handled. I mean, would you advise CSP to release that statement in retrospect, knowing what we now know? I hope not. And if not, we should study what went wrong and what lessons should be learned. (Mind you, I don't think the decision itself was a bad one -- but especially in a game that's close to 100% communication, the communication is nearly as important as the decision itself.)

It certainly was the right decision because the admin abuse wasn't known at the time, and wasn't a basis for the coup. The statement was thus not invalidated in any way, shape or form by the subsequent revelation of admin abuse.

NES is still butthurt over Earth and Ollie. D'aww.

lol. I have merely pointed out the truth. The only "butthurt" ones here are those who would rather make snide comments or bury their heads in the sand, than accept the patently obvious truth! :rolleyes:




By in large I think I've now addressed all the misinformation in this article, and the last article. So yes, I agree with HEM, time to move on, not get obsessed with kidding ourselves about the past. The only people with "blind loyalties" here, are those trying to defend traitors against the face all of evidence because they are their friends - namely Skizzy. Loyalty to Europeia is not blind, it is loyalty to an honourable region of great moral stature. :euro:
 
Look, I don't give a shit. About a lot of Euro things. This is one of those things. I'm amazed that people are still hooked on past things.

In the grand scheme of things whatever Earth and Ollie did doesn't concern me. I'm not going to judge every player that I encounter because then one becomes a not-so-good player.

I don't give a shit. Period. What I do give a shit about is that our community really isn't as great as it could be.
 
Look, I don't give a shit. About a lot of Euro things. This is one of those things. I'm amazed that people are still hooked on past things.

In the grand scheme of things whatever Earth and Ollie did doesn't concern me. I'm not going to judge every player that I encounter because then one becomes a not-so-good player. 

I don't give a shit. Period. What I do give a shit about is that our community really isn't as great as it could be.
The thing is, if it was someone that you didn't like that had done all this stuff, you'd be queueing up to put throw darts at their picture. Yes it is all done and dusted now, and no it wasn't me that started a massive inquisition on this. I merely responded to misinformation.

The fact is though, your "cuddlefluff" treated this community like shit, and Europeians like idiots.
You just don't give a shit because that reality is hard for to you.

Our community is fine, there must be a balance between happy clappy pat each other on the back, and serious political gameplay, and I think we have that struck better than we have done for years right now.
 
Actually, I wouldn't. Because I don't give a shit.
Okay. For someone who "doesn't give a shit about a lot of Euro things", and who won't hold their friends to the same standards you hold everyone else, you're coming back here to mouth off about it an awful lot though. :eek:rly:
 
My apathy doesn't mean I can't point things out. I don't mind internal inconsistencies. You might care that I may treat people differently based on whether I've met them or not, but I don't.

Anyways. I'm out.
 
@ Hy: lol, "internal inconsistancies".

Here's a little similar scenario for you to ponder, with changed specifics to make it more realistic:

Let's just imagine I try to get the ERN to invade Grand Central, cause a few of my mates abroad want to take it over, you know, it would be cool and stuff. Never mind it's got close associations with Europeia, I'm sure I'll manage to pull it off. After all, I would probably get some senior positions there if we win! I get Rach to redirect some crucial Euro units onto the invading side despite the Admiralty having officially mobilised to defend our friends who were attacked for no reason in GC. Unfortunately the invasion fails, and I get into an argument with our Supreme Chancellor, keen to defend personal and Europeian interests there.

Some twat is also bugging me about making him Director of External Strategy, and asked for a final answer and to stop being fobbed off, so I find it rather more convenient to just resign from FM and piss off with Rachel, and a few of our sons. I give the reason as someone allegedly said nasty things to OnderKelkia a few days before. Together myself, Rach and our sons have sent over 50% of the telegrams in the past 4 months, and we hold a number of important positions here. So the region is essentially reliant upon us.

So we bugger off to Balder etc. Whilst we are in Balder, Rachel writes an opinion piece insulting Europeia for being weak and pathetic. We make some good contacts, but it's not really going anywhere.

And then we decided, no, wait. We're coming back. Would I be received like Royalty as if nothing had ever happenned?

Probably not. More likely we'd be beheaded and stoned out of town.

But, imagine somehow we weren't. Because we garnered extraordinary amount of respect. And then I used this respect, and Europeian people's goodwill to to rebuild my political base. Get myself into the VPcy again, and consolidate political power through dubious and underhand means - make a Treaty with Balder, cast aside our traditional allies, ensure the next President and GA etc, were my favoured nominees.

And then, what if some "annoying prick" stood up for Europeian interests at some point and stopped me from doing this. And then I threw a hissy and took even more people than the first time off to GB&I, to build a "better Europeia" there. The people from the first time, plus several more, come along for the ride. Europeia is left with a huge chunk of it's community stolen, and considerably weakened because of my actions.

I then proceed to build GB&I up a bit, but then go back to work in Balder and a few other regions and organisations where I pick up positions. I help break up relations between Europeia and it's ally TNI - whom I had officially left before this whole furore started, but obviously I retained a few crucial contacts. I take every opportunity I can to denigrate Europeia's reputation along the way and badmouth it at every opportunity to other members of the public. Rachel does the same. Most of the other people we took along eventually realise what we have done is wrong and either return to Europeia or vanish.

Would Hy be saying he didn't give a shit about that? It doesn't matter, it's just ole' NES playin' about. I think he was in the right all along, he was just a victim of our community's poor behaviour!

Or would he be saying I am a dick, and a traitor, and if I show my face here again I'm dead meat?

Have a little think about that. And you, Skizzy.
 
By the by, I still don't care.

I wouldn't be calling you anything unless you upset my friends. And I mean, like upset-upset, it has to cross a high threshold that has only been crossed once in my NS career.
 
I am not entirely familiar with the Euro situation, but from my dealings in the North Pacific I can tell you that the most successful regions and organizations in Nationstates are those that demand loyalty from their membership. TNP didn't and look where it is now - everyone treats it like a dime-store whore exactly because they know they can get away with it.
 
By the by, I still don't care.

I wouldn't be calling you anything unless you upset my friends. And I mean, like upset-upset, it has to cross a high threshold that has only been crossed once in my NS career.
Of course, I have the pleasure of you telling me on MSN once:

Hy on MSN (19th Sept 11) said:
You piss off Earthie again and I will cut your balls off.

Hy on MSN (19th Sept 11) said:
You. Are. A. Cunt.

And, oh, what did I ever do to deserve that? Nothing? Indeed you yourself admitted later in the convo after you had calmed down a bit you just came to me to rant at me because she "appeared upset".

She appeared upset, because I stood up to her from a gameplay perspective, and didn't let her have free reign of what she did with Europeia. Crucify me for that if you want. But I'm pretty sure who was in the right there.

You may not care for the facts. You may believe, and I quote you from the convo "if she gets pissed off, I do to. Regardless of who is right. Sorta sticking up for your friend no matter what."

But, I disagree with being so blindly loyal to ones friend as to be utterly disloyal to the region, and to honourable values in general. And indeed, you sir, are the perfect example of that.
 
But, I disagree with being so blindly loyal to ones friend as to be utterly disloyal to the region, and to honourable values in general. And indeed, you sir, are the perfect example of that.
I'd rather be loyal to my friends than to a region.

I'd also like to offer a slight correction on the IRC debarcle mention - it wasn't the -kick- that caused a real problem (there'd have probably been a hissy fit and that would've been that). It was the -ban-. Now, I was half leaning towards a kick, I wouldn't have banned myself. However, the fact that myself, r3n and Earth then spent ages trying to figure out how to remove the ban - it was placed on a banlist that we couldn't figure out how to change - the extended ban was intentional, basically.

But, to be quite honest, these are all debates that we've had previously, and there is little point dwelling on them once more. What's done is done, and we've all moved on.
 
Kick, ban, sure, Im sorry for not making the distinction. The fact is though Earth interferred politically in several things in those elections. And when she was taken up on this publicly she made it out to be some kind of traversty or abuse - and ran off in a hissy fit of self-righteousness. I'm afraid it's not abuse, it's called taking responsibility for your actions.

She had long become accustomed to not having to do this, because no one would ever stand up to her - because of friendship, fear or feelings. I was not shackled by the two former issues, and I soon realised my feelings (compassion/sensitivity) were being systematically exploited to further gameplay matters against the regions interests. So I stepped up, and said no, I don't agree with you and I won't be manipulated into not neutrality. And she had no response but to unleash all her fury and friends upon me to destroy my reputation. But that, they could not do. And, I daresay, Europeia is here and healthy today, because of it.

I'd rather be loyal to my friends than to a region.

Well, this is what the whole debate is about. I'm saying, when ones friend is clearly in the wrong, like the case here. That it is wrong to side with ones friends. Evidently, some people think it is okay to do that. I disagree, and I think that is treating Europeia with disrespect.

I underestimated the willingness for people to go on and on making excuses for their so-called "friends", in a fanatical demonstration of loyalty, months on from the debacle. When everyone else has realised precisely what happenned. And concluded that we should expect more from our Leadership in the future.

Thank you for summing up the whole thread in a sentence.
 
There really is not anything wrong with being loyal to one's friends over a region; but surely you cannot expect said region to welcome you back with open arms afterwards. Results have consequences unfortunately. For me that's what this boils down to.
 
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