Union of Europeia

[HEM]

The issue has been rectified:

http://z6.****************/Europeia/index....showtopic=18780

 

[Anumia]

Two days, McEntire, and you want to shut us down for being silly enough to want to make a manifesto based on the input of the already-large number of people in the party?

 

[McEntire]

The law says what a party is and what a party must have. I'm not some big scary man trying to get you shut down, I'm just quoting the law and trying to get you to follow it. In fact, while I'm at it,

1) A "political party" is defined "as an organisation made up of citizens with similar political ideologies, whose members work together to achieve their political goals.

That's also in the PPRA. Considering that each of our current parties has openly admitted at one time or another that they're not ideologically based, an argument could be made that we don't even have a single legitimate party.

 

[Anumia]

...and such shall be done in due course.

 

[HEM]

As I clearly said in my statement before, we all have similar political philosophies and beliefs, it's specifics that need to be ironed out.

 

[Anumia]

Incidentally, as we are the "Union of Europeia", not the "Europeia Party" or something similar, if we moved out of the Political Party area and into somewhere more social, yet continued operation, this would probably escape your complaints anyway.

Seeing as a political party is defined as:

"as an organisation made up of citizens with similar political ideologies, whose members work together to achieve their political goals."

if we do not fulfil that, surely we also are not bound by the requirements to post a manifesto?

 

[McEntire]

Sure, specifics like what you guys even stand for besides an "Anumia for President" campaign. Oh, that's right, "staying groovy", too, how could I forget staying groovy? Real concrete list of goals there, between the Anumia thing and staying groovy, we'll have this region running like a coked up midget being chased by a white tiger!

All I've ever asked of political parties is for you to not pretend to be something that you're not, namely pretending to be a political party. Political parties are inherently ideological, and that's not just me spouting off rhetoric, that's the legal definition. An ideology isn't one person or one candidate, and we've seen that cults of personality (a la Falconias) aren't durable when that person leaves. If they truly had a thick ideology and shared vision for the region, they'd hold together.

An ideology is a comprehensive view of policy that can be applied to any area of law with relative ease. As I've argued in the past, it's impossible to have a true ideology in NationStates, there's simply not a full palate of issues, so that's not your fault, but to say that you're constructing an ideology based off your members' ideas is disingenuous, not to mention putting the cart before the horse. You can pretend to be a political party all day long, but we all know it's just a cult of personality, little more than a campaign committee. And that's why political parties frustrate me.

Incidentally, as we are the "Union of Europeia", not the "Europeia Party" or something similar, if we moved out of the Political Party area and into somewhere more social, yet continued operation, this would probably escape your complaints anyway.  Seeing as a political party is defined as:  "as an organisation made up of citizens with similar political ideologies, whose members work together to achieve their political goals."  if we do not fulfil that, surely we also are not bound by the requirements to post a manifesto?

EDIT: Yes! Perfect! Just be a social organization! Meaning, not in the political party section of the forum. My only issue is masquerading as something you're not.

 

[HEM]

EDIT: Yes! Perfect! Just be a social organization! Meaning, not in the political party section of the forum. My only issue is masquerading as something you're not.

Actually we could be, considering the category is "Parties and Societies" with the later traditionally being allowed.

And yes, parties are ideological. But it doesn't mean walking in lockstep nor does it mean consensus on every political issue. Look at the United States Democratic Party, there are members who would be just as ideologically bound to the GOP. Does that make the party obsolete or less real? No. It means that there is a spectrum of views, and like all parties, power is the first priority.

 

[modernsin]

An ideology isn't one person or one candidate, and we've seen that cults of personality (a la Falconias) aren't durable when that person leaves. If they truly had a thick ideology and shared vision for the region, they'd hold together.

You realize that the NCP existed over a year before Falconias joined, and continues to exist four months after his departure, yeah?

 

[Anumia]

Well, you can be frustrated all you like McEntire, but I think your tirade against political parties in general has now expanded beyond my party, and perhaps would be better suited to the Grand Hall.

 

[McEntire]

An ideology isn't one person or one candidate, and we've seen that cults of personality (a la Falconias) aren't durable when that person leaves. If they truly had a thick ideology and shared vision for the region, they'd hold together.

You realize that the NCP existed over a year before Falconias joined, and continues to exist four months after his departure, yeah?

"Exist" is a relative term.

And yes, parties are ideological. But it doesn't mean walking in lockstep nor does it mean consensus on every political issue. Look at the United States Democratic Party, there are members who would be just as ideologically bound to the GOP. Does that make the party obsolete or less real? No. It means that there is a spectrum of views, and like all parties, power is the first priority.

Yep, you're absolutely right, in Europeian political parties, power is the first priority, not any type of plan for the region. Even the Democrats have a general ideology of liberalism, and a general plan for the citizenry. Yes, there are those who don't adhere to the liberal ideology, but it's there, and most members of that party subscribe to it. I don't expect you to be in "lock step", but I do expect a general idea of what's best for the region besides "staying groovy". Does the Anumian Union even have a single plan for the region? Can you even be said to have a single issue that you all agree upon besides the election of Anumia? You, HEM, can't even decide if you're for political parties or want them banished, how can we expect a party co-founded by you to have ideological consistency?

Anumia, you're right, this is an inappropriate place to have a discussion about political parties that you don't want to have. I think I've made my point though, no use prolonging a discussion that will, in the end, lead to no real change.

 

[modernsin]

An ideology isn't one person or one candidate, and we've seen that cults of personality (a la Falconias) aren't durable when that person leaves. If they truly had a thick ideology and shared vision for the region, they'd hold together.

You realize that the NCP existed over a year before Falconias joined, and continues to exist four months after his departure, yeah?

"Exist" is a relative term.

Is it?

'Cause no, it's basically not. :lol:

 

[Anumia]

For the record, I have my own personal plans, that I have given some or all of to several Union members, and even one or two non-Union members, but I want to see what the Union wants before publishing Union policy.

I could post my own plans as Union plans, but then it truly would be about me and nothing else, would it not?

 

[HEM]

Instead of bashing me, how about stay tuned to the issues?

Political Parties in Nationstates are originally and foremost based around like minded individuals pursuing a common goal. In this case, the common goal is the progression and preservation of Europeia.

I recall a while back, the Europeian Union Party. A similar name, oddly enough. The prominent members where Lexus, Aurora, Lethen, I and a few others. While I don't think we ever nailed down specific policy, it was understood that we all had generally similar views on how to run the region. Times, trials and difficulties pruned and grew the party, and I can honestly say at the end that we were a coalition of like minded individuals.

That's how parties are defined in NS. We can't point and say, "We need more welfare", or "taxes need to be lower." Of course we can, and always will echo the same platitudes of a stronger executive, more effective legislature, there is very little that can be defined by a piece of paper. Rather it is similar beliefs on *how* the region should be run, and *why* we are running it as it is. Such things are not always nailed down overnight, but I can tell you for certain that we already have a group who are not only exceedingly bright thinkers, they are innovative politicians and I share a common desire with all of them -- to run the region in an effective and strong manner.

Political parties have had toxic influences on the region, and when they do I shall continue to call them out on it. But looking back to the old Unionists and old Centralists, and old old Conservatives, I also know that political parties have had positive and resoundingly progressive influences within Europeia, and I shall give laurels where they are deserving.

EDIT: F*** it, I edited it out. Professionalism is needed, and I should at least try to set an example :emb:

 

[Oliver]

With respect, Lord McEntire, a political party is not inherently ideological.

I submit, for your amusement (I hope), the Rhinoceros Party of Canada.

Some choice quotes from the Wikipedia page:

the Rhinoceros Party's basic credo, their so-called primal promise, was "a promise to keep none of our promises."

The party claimed to be the spiritual descendants of Cacareco, a Brazilian rhinoceros who was elected member of São Paulo's city council in 1958, and listed Cornelius the First, a rhinoceros from the Granby Zoo, east of Montreal, as its leader.

Bryan Gold of the Rhinoceros Party described the party platform as two feet high and made of wood. "My platform is the one I'm standing on."

It could certainly be argued that the "ideology" of the party is to mock politics, but that's not a political ideology, really. The number of votes they get doesn't matter. They're a political party with no overweaning political ideology. So kindly pull the stick from your ass, Lord Mac.

 

[McEntire]

For the record, I have my own personal plans, that I have given some or all of to several Union members, and even one or two non-Union members, but I want to see what the Union wants before publishing Union policy.

I could post my own plans as Union plans, but then it truly would be about me and nothing else, would it not?

No, if you did that it'd be you and those who agree with the stances that you set out, which is what a political party is.

I don't want to keep arguing this, like Anumia said, it's an inappropriate place to have an argument, plus I know I'm not going to get anywhere, even though we all know deep inside that all parties are bull. All I'll say is that this is the Europeian legal definition of a political party:

an organisation made up of citizens with similar political ideologies, whose members work together to achieve their political goals.

Enshrined in law, right there, is the ultimate argument for political parties being inherently ideological.

Political Parties in Nationstates are originally and foremost based around like minded individuals pursuing a common goal. In this case, the common goal is the progression and preservation of Europeia.

Everyone wants that. Your entire post proves exactly what I'm saying. You can't have an ideology, therefore you can't have a clear-cut difference between political parties. Our parties mean nothing more than social structures who see which one can get most votes. If every party's ideology is to make Europeia better, then why not just have one party called the Europeian Progress Party, and we can all agree on one thing? Instead, we have 3 parties preaching the same thing, and that is nothing. When they do try and post a platform, it really means nothing, because there are no issues you disagree with any other political party about!

Any argument between the parties is playful back-and-forth simply because someone belongs to the party, not based on any stances that that party holds. Political parties in that form add nothing to the debate of Europeia and mean nothing to serious policy making. If you're going to pretend that they do, then you can take it elsewhere, because I'm not buying it. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. Respond however you want, I am done.

 

[Oliver]

Screw you guys, I'm going home?

 

[Sopo]

I'm going to go ahead and say that The Party is bullshit. Please, don't accuse me of trying to be something I'm not.

 

[Jahka]

I love Rhinos.