Faithless Electors Regain Legitimacy

Lloenflys

"Certainty is an illusion ..."
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It has been four months since Lloenflys's Gavel last published, but I am putting out an emergency bulletin this evening to announce that I'm in the process of writing up a piece on a decision that came down on Tuesday in the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals on the issue of Faithless Electors. I have a lot to say on this issue and this opinion provides a great opportunity to go into a thorough discussion of the issue, so I'm aiming to have that analysis done by Saturday at some point. However, I wanted to give a little snippet of what is to come to whet the appetite of those who are legally minded.

So ... what are we talking about here? What exactly is a "faithless elector" and why does it matter? Let's start with the basics. As I think most people are aware of at this point, the United States does not elect its president by a popular vote system. Instead, an archaic institution called the "Electoral College" actually casts votes. When people go to the polls to vote for president, what they're really doing is voting for a slate of electors in their state who have pledged to support the candidate that they are representing. In virtually no cases does anyone know who these electors actually are, other than the candidate's staff - who submitted the names to the state's election officials to nominate them for the position. These people don't campaign, we don't find out their names, they just exist as a formality. They have essentially one job - to show up to the official vote casting of the Electoral College and cast their ballot in favor of the person who won the most votes in their state on election day.

Occasionally, things break down. An elector maybe decides that things have changed and they aren't quite as in love with the candidate they pledged to support in the first place. Maybe their candidate didn't win the popular vote. Maybe their candidate made a terrible gaffe at the end of the election and they can no longer support that person. Maybe they just want to grandstand. In any case, if an elector deviates from the election results and casts a vote for someone other than the winner in their state, the elector is called a "faithless" elector.

States don't especially like this, and thirty of them have passed laws to try to force electors to cast their votes as the electorate has directed. In the 1950's the Supreme Court ruled that states can require electors to take an oath pledging to cast their vote as required by the result of the public vote. Nonetheless, occasionally an elector still deviates from the plan, and sometimes - as in this case - they do so even in a state where they pledged to follow the results of the election.

The big question therefore becomes "Is it Constitutional to force an elector to vote for the candidate they pledged to support?" The answer, according to the 10th Circuit, is no. Requiring them to take a pledge or oath is fine ... but if they choose to go their own way there is no way to stop them. It is this decision that I plan to analyze in greater detail over the next couple of days.

I see valid arguments on both sides of this issue. On one hand, states repeatedly are given the power to control elections in the Constitution. On the other hand, the office of Presidential Elector is a real constitutional office, one that has specific duties that cannot ignored or bypassed. We may balk at the idea that these people have something other than a merely ministerial role to play in a presidential election, but the better argument is probably that they do indeed have such freedom if they choose to exercise it. If we don't like that, well ... perhaps it will serve as a greater impetus to eliminate the Electoral College.

Alright, enough rambling without having read the opinion in question - I'll stop here for now. If you have any questions or comments please feel free to leave them in the comments section. If you have questions, I'll do my best to address them when I complete the more complete analysis in the coming days.

Thanks everyone who popped in for this (triumphant!?!) return of Lloenflys's Gavel, and keep on the lookout for the full writeup!
 
I need more than just a "like" button to react to this post.

:pride_heart::popcorn::cheers:
 
I need more than just a "like" button to react to this post.

:pride_heart::popcorn::cheers:

Lol Prim you always were Lloenflys's Gavel's biggest fan I think! I'm glad you're excited about the upcoming article!
 
Not sure if you saw, but I quoted one of your articles in my justice confirmation hearing. ?

Was very well-written.
 
Not sure if you saw, but I quoted one of your articles in my justice confirmation hearing. ?

Was very well-written.

Yes, I remember that - it made me smile!!
 
In this case I think I agree with the 10th Circuit, even though I'm not crazy about the policy implications.
 
I think this could have dangerous consequences. I know how people feel about the Electoral College, but it has done exactly what it was designed to do for the past 229 years. Faithless Electors only serve to damage the reputation of what is already a controversial process.
 
I think this could have dangerous consequences. I know how people feel about the Electoral College, but it has done exactly what it was designed to do for the past 229 years. Faithless Electors only serve to damage the reputation of what is already a controversial process.
Then I feel like people need to come together and change how we conduct elections. In the United States, the President isn't elected by the people, they're elected by the electors—it's a feature, not a bug.

We're counting on a piecemeal solution to represent the popular outcome of elections, and it *usually* does, but a lot of the time it doesn't, but because we've been mentally trained that it should, that's the true shock to the legitimacy of the system.
 
I know, everyone hates the Electoral College. Just wait until a Democrat wins while losing the popular vote. People will start to "mysteriously" switch sides.
 
I would rather not have the people of New York City decide an election for me in Delaware. The Electoral College guarantees all states have a say, not just the largest.
 
I think this could have dangerous consequences. I know how people feel about the Electoral College, but it has done exactly what it was designed to do for the past 229 years. Faithless Electors only serve to damage the reputation of what is already a controversial process.
It was designed to have faithless electors, they were supposed to be a check on the "baser instincts" of the people and prevent a demagogue gaining power. If I recall correctly, it has been used effectively once to swing an election to the other candidate, but that was a long time ago. But saying that allowing for "faithless" electors is setting a dangerous precedent, that's how it was designed --
 
I would rather not have the people of New York City decide an election for me in Delaware. The Electoral College guarantees all states have a say, not just the largest.
The Electoral College guarantees that fewer people in rural states have over-weighted influence on elections...

You're arguing for a tyranny of the minority --
 
I would rather not have the people of New York City decide an election for me in Delaware. The Electoral College guarantees all states have a say, not just the largest.
The Electoral College guarantees that fewer people in rural states have over-weighted influence on elections...

You're arguing for a tyranny of the minority --

The minority can't control where it lives and works. The minority still has a voice in the process and a viewpoint which should be respected and taken into consideration. I wouldn't call it a tyranny but saying that the opinions of New York City or Dallas or Los Angeles matter more than the opinions of the citizens of Anytown USA is a little hard to play off.

We consistently see this Us vs Them argument in politics, getting rid of the EC makes that argument a whole lot worse.
 
I think this could have dangerous consequences. I know how people feel about the Electoral College, but it has done exactly what it was designed to do for the past 229 years. Faithless Electors only serve to damage the reputation of what is already a controversial process.
It was designed to have faithless electors, they were supposed to be a check on the "baser instincts" of the people and prevent a demagogue gaining power. If I recall correctly, it has been used effectively once to swing an election to the other candidate, but that was a long time ago. But saying that allowing for "faithless" electors is setting a dangerous precedent, that's how it was designed --
No, the original design was that people had no choice at all in how their electors voted. It wasn’t until the early 1800s that all states opened the ballot to popular vote.
 
I would rather not have the people of New York City decide an election for me in Delaware. The Electoral College guarantees all states have a say, not just the largest.
The Electoral College guarantees that fewer people in rural states have over-weighted influence on elections...

You're arguing for a tyranny of the minority --

The minority can't control where it lives and works. The minority still has a voice in the process and a viewpoint which should be respected and taken into consideration. I wouldn't call it a tyranny but saying that the opinions of New York City or Dallas or Los Angeles matter more than the opinions of the citizens of Anytown USA is a little hard to play off.

We consistently see this Us vs Them argument in politics, getting rid of the EC makes that argument a whole lot worse.
The minority's voice should be taken into consideration -- in proportion to its population.

But people who support the EC and the Senate want lower population states to have more voice and more influence than higher population states.

It's plainly undemocratic and sad.
 
I would rather not have the people of New York City decide an election for me in Delaware. The Electoral College guarantees all states have a say, not just the largest.
The Electoral College guarantees that fewer people in rural states have over-weighted influence on elections...

You're arguing for a tyranny of the minority --

The minority can't control where it lives and works. The minority still has a voice in the process and a viewpoint which should be respected and taken into consideration. I wouldn't call it a tyranny but saying that the opinions of New York City or Dallas or Los Angeles matter more than the opinions of the citizens of Anytown USA is a little hard to play off.

We consistently see this Us vs Them argument in politics, getting rid of the EC makes that argument a whole lot worse.
The minority's voice should be taken into consideration -- in proportion to its population.

But people who support the EC and the Senate want lower population states to have more voice and more influence than higher population states.

It's plainly undemocratic and sad.
No, they just want larger states to stop trying to take more and more influence from them. You may not care about the corn that grows in Kansas, but when the next President bans pesticides essential to protecting crops because NYC and LA have no idea how the farming works, you will start to care a lot more.
 
I would rather not have the people of New York City decide an election for me in Delaware. The Electoral College guarantees all states have a say, not just the largest.
The Electoral College guarantees that fewer people in rural states have over-weighted influence on elections...

You're arguing for a tyranny of the minority --

The minority can't control where it lives and works. The minority still has a voice in the process and a viewpoint which should be respected and taken into consideration. I wouldn't call it a tyranny but saying that the opinions of New York City or Dallas or Los Angeles matter more than the opinions of the citizens of Anytown USA is a little hard to play off.

We consistently see this Us vs Them argument in politics, getting rid of the EC makes that argument a whole lot worse.
The minority's voice should be taken into consideration -- in proportion to its population.

But people who support the EC and the Senate want lower population states to have more voice and more influence than higher population states.

It's plainly undemocratic and sad.
No, they just want larger states to stop trying to take more and more influence from them. You may not care about the corn that grows in Kansas, but when the next President bans pesticides essential to protecting crops because NYC and LA have no idea how the farming works, you will start to care a lot more.
Oh JayDee, no one cares about Kansas.... not since Brownback worked his magic there. :p
 
I would rather not have the people of New York City decide an election for me in Delaware. The Electoral College guarantees all states have a say, not just the largest.
The Electoral College guarantees that fewer people in rural states have over-weighted influence on elections...

You're arguing for a tyranny of the minority --

The minority can't control where it lives and works. The minority still has a voice in the process and a viewpoint which should be respected and taken into consideration. I wouldn't call it a tyranny but saying that the opinions of New York City or Dallas or Los Angeles matter more than the opinions of the citizens of Anytown USA is a little hard to play off.

We consistently see this Us vs Them argument in politics, getting rid of the EC makes that argument a whole lot worse.
The minority's voice should be taken into consideration -- in proportion to its population.

But people who support the EC and the Senate want lower population states to have more voice and more influence than higher population states.

It's plainly undemocratic and sad.
No, they just want larger states to stop trying to take more and more influence from them. You may not care about the corn that grows in Kansas, but when the next President bans pesticides essential to protecting crops because NYC and LA have no idea how the farming works, you will start to care a lot more.
Oh JayDee, no one cares about Kansas.... not since Brownback worked his magic there. :p
But...Dorothy is from Kansas :(
 
I would rather not have the people of New York City decide an election for me in Delaware. The Electoral College guarantees all states have a say, not just the largest.
The Electoral College guarantees that fewer people in rural states have over-weighted influence on elections...

You're arguing for a tyranny of the minority --

The minority can't control where it lives and works. The minority still has a voice in the process and a viewpoint which should be respected and taken into consideration. I wouldn't call it a tyranny but saying that the opinions of New York City or Dallas or Los Angeles matter more than the opinions of the citizens of Anytown USA is a little hard to play off.

We consistently see this Us vs Them argument in politics, getting rid of the EC makes that argument a whole lot worse.
The minority's voice should be taken into consideration -- in proportion to its population.

But people who support the EC and the Senate want lower population states to have more voice and more influence than higher population states.

It's plainly undemocratic and sad.
No, they just want larger states to stop trying to take more and more influence from them. You may not care about the corn that grows in Kansas, but when the next President bans pesticides essential to protecting crops because NYC and LA have no idea how the farming works, you will start to care a lot more.
Oh JayDee, no one cares about Kansas.... not since Brownback worked his magic there. :p
But...Dorothy is from Kansas :(
Ah, the last time Kansas was in the cultural spotlight.... :p

I'm particularly harsh on Kansas because I'm from a neighboring state of theirs.
 
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