Deceit of Defenderism

Skizzy Grey said:
Well, your two posts prior to that one referred to Anumia. This gem was the first:

I know this may come as a shock to you, but you are not the whole of Europeia.
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Then, the second:

Whatever Anumia, you and other individuals thought, what Europeia did as a region was the president's decision and his decision broke a promise he made to the TNI Government that Europeia would never knowingly partake in any operation alongside any FRA forces unless it was a training exercise and I am confident that a president without FRA associations and an ideological commitment to 'raiding' over defending would have certainly felt more uneasy about so brazenly breaking that commitment to TNI. He has now apologised for not consulting TNI over doing so, but that is unrelated to point.
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I understand your confusion, Onder. It's not clear to me either.

My best guess is Anumia was chiding you for a tactical error -- you had gotten some remarkable concessions from the fendas, but rather than pressing your advantage, you changed the subject.
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Neither of those posts can be described as 'complaining about someone who is in fact mostly on your side in this argument', which is what he referred to: they were attacking the broken presidential promise in relation to Europeia as a whole. I do not know what Anumia thinks this is, but I did not enter this discussion with the sole objective of damaging the FRA in the easiest way possible.

I addressed Lexus's comments attacking my allegations of FRA subversion in Europeia, which Anumia then intervened to support Lexus on, and I replied back to address Anumia's reaction to my remarks replying to Lexus: if a distraction from any 'advantage' was there, it was created by their side posts, which necessitated refuting in order to offer my different interpretation of events, but I do not view it in terms of tactical advantage or otherwise.
 
With regards to what 'side' I'm on, my WA is resident in Europeia and is not used in any military so I am neutral. I've had issues with the FRA; couldn't count how many times I've rushed in there pissed off with this or that. I've had many issues with the LKE and you personally Onder. Quite frankly, my view of the whole lot of you is summed up by George Orwell: "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." There is little difference between you, except in some ideological senses and perhaps differing takes on morality in NS; neither of which I fully agree with.

As for Feudal Japan, as I said in the statement, I apologise for not consulting TNI however that was not a Europeia-FRA mission. It was an NS mission, sanctioned by the World Assembly. CLT may be historic allies for you, but they were dead and clutching onto a region that wanted to be restored. They infringed upon their sovereignty in the worst possible way, taking their region, their truest link to the game, away from them.

I would liberate them a thousand times more to avoid such a disgusting abuse of a region.
 
Pope Lexus X said:
Quite frankly, my view of the whole lot of you is summed up by George Orwell: "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." There is little difference between you, except in some ideological senses and perhaps differing takes on morality in NS; neither of which I fully agree with.
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This sums up my opinion on defender/raider.

They're both the same. Because I'm in Europeia, and Europeia is essentially Raider, I'm 'raider', and if I ever join the ERN (which is on my to-do list) I would raid. But if I was in a defender region, I'd defend. Mostly because the military stuff, regardless of ideology would be about fun for me.

I really do think some people lose sight of the fact that this is a game. IMHO.
 
Oliver Dion-Grey said:
Onderkelkia said:
Anumia said:
Irrelevant to other points (as in, I'm not challenging nor supporting any others), you really need to stop complaining about Feudal Japan. Whether or not Lex was President, I would have put absolutely everything of myself into seeing that one through. Hell, had I known about the invasion before it happened, I might have even switched back ;)
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I know this may come as a shock to you, but you are not the whole of Europeia.
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I feel fairly comfortable in saying that, at the time, and now, I would have agreed with him. I don't think Anumia and I are so alone.
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And I was in Cabinet at the time, we were all on-board with it as I recall. Of course, I can understand your side Onder. I don't think the pact with TNI was broken *knowingly* though.

And I don't want to get too mired in all of this, but:

1) When the LKE went to Suffolk to protect it until LMR could revive the founder, were they flagged with the LKE flag?

2) I'm getting tired of reading the "I'm not in leadership positions in the FRA, so I have no say" arguments coming out of most of the FRA members who have popped in...You're older members, you are upstanding in the FRA community (I assume), you have influence and a say. Can't deny that.
 
I have no say in the FRA beyond a rep for the Assembly. I'm getting tired of seeing a lot of negative comments over the FRA in general. We cocked up a few times but no one ever lets us forget. We don't make grand topics about your mistakes and post them across NS.

Another lovely read though, you guys make a good topic. I did notice my name mentioned back there though so i'm replying to just that :p

Onder said:
You have timed your intervention at the right moment following the argument over the LKE-Cingeta question, having previously been observing this and Rachel Anumia's thread on the FRA, along with other senior FRA members (really controlling eminence grises) that apparently hold no significant office, namely DYP, NC and Cocodian, for a number of days.
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Well i'm a citizen here and FRA member regions, and i like to see arguments. And if anyone thinks i can control anything in the FRA they need their head examined :p

Bitchy moment over back to chillax
 
Lexus said:
As for Feudal Japan, as I said in the statement, I apologise for not consulting TNI however that was not a Europeia-FRA mission. It was an NS mission, sanctioned by the World Assembly.
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The World Assembly, a body largely under defender control (especially nowadays due to the massive block of 10000 Islands votes), may be able to remove passwords from regions, but it cannot authorise or compel regions to invade or not. Europeia's decision to participate was, as a sovereign region, its own, and regardless of the merits, we must take responsibility for it rather than claiming there was some general 'NS' mandate legitimising it: there was no more a mandate than for the unsuccessful defender attempts to 'liberate' (really counter-invade) the region of Free Thought, secured for a couple of months by the LKE with at various times, as their own commitments allowed, support from TNI, Europeia and Unknown, which also had a Security Council resolution passed in relation to it.

Lethen said:
1) When the LKE went to Suffolk to protect it until LMR could revive the founder, were they flagged with the LKE flag?
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Of course, although the region was UKB, not Suffolk.
 
Hyanygo said:
Oh shut the f--k up and take your divisive bulls--t elsewhere.
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In the post immediately above yours, all I have done is rejected the idea that Security Council resolutions represent any mandate for sovereign regions to engage in military operations that are not their will in the first place and answered Lethen's question of fact in relation to UKB. Neither of these points can be described as particularly divisive, certainly not compared to what could have been said in reaction to other points made by Lexus and DYP on wider defender-invader questions and the FRA.

Moreover, even if I had made such 'divisive' comments, I would not regard it as a problem: genuine differences of opinion define and clarify positions from a murky consensus that sees no one having distinctive policies and basing their views on personal connections rather than considered thought as to what is best for their regions.

The questions under discussion are integral to the question of what was and what should be Europeia's foreign policy. As was helpfully pointed out by Skizzy Grey earlier in this thread, I am a citizen of Europeia and have every right to air these views here, as indeed the FRA's citizens here currently have the right to come here and launch their thinly disguised, coordinated propaganda response to HEM and Rachel Anumia's speeches.
 
However it could be seen as divisive to label your rebuttal to points raised here as legitimate, and others who have a different view to you, as citizens of Euro too, as not.
 
Indeed such a label could be seen as divisive, but in the post Hyango was reacting to by attacking me for being divisive (which can be seen immediately above his), I did not do such any such thing. I did imply such in the post immediately before yours but, for the reasons given in the post before yours, I have no objection to divisiveness on principle.
 
Please don't make me write a third speech from this office about basically being nice and reasonable. Click here.
 
I have of course read your speech already. I am neither likely to change long held views because of generalist rhetoric (which I must say was rather disconnected to the discussion at hand at the time of its writing), nor am I likely to comply with condescending instructions seeking to constrain what I say. I do not accept your implicit characterisation of my remarks as unreasonable and regard what I have said as part of a measured discussion, if one inevitably involving disagreements, relevant to the issue at hand.

It was of course rather unreasonable of Hyango to tell me to 'shut the f--k up' and go elsewhere, but that was prior to your speech.
 
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