The Ogastein Show

The Ogastein Show
Trouble in the Sandbox?
Episode 1
The Senate, in all its glory, has been continuing on a route this term of improving its reputation. Largely seen last term as an inactive body where nothing really happened, the Senate has been forging ahead with its "critic of the Executive" stance. Yes, led by Speaker Oliver, the Senate has taken a hardline stance against the Executive and as such has sparked activity. Perhaps they've forgotten how to react to legislation because the shit hit the fan recently when Senator Klatonia proposed a controversial bill that promoted retaliatory porn spam. Did the Senate kindly disagree and explain why such a bill would just not work? Nope, not the case. In fact our Senate reverted back to their preschool attitudes and began to throw their hands up in a game of "NO YOU!"

The bill aptly named, "The Extreme Measures Act (2011)," seemed to be born as a result of the porn spams that occurred a couple of weeks ago. It suggested that crashing forums would be allowed if used in retaliation. Yes, in Europeia, a region where we like to take a moderate stance on foreign affairs and military stuff, there is a proposal to allow retaliatory forum crashing. A region where we have CRUCIFIED citizens who have even remotely participated in such activities (See Rougiers; Former President, Crist Seymour; Current Senator.) Anyways, it's not hard for the majority of people with an average IQ to tell you that the bill was stupid. The intent of this bonehead bill was likely, however, not to ACTUALLY propose it but to encourage discussion on the matter. Discussion after something radical is proposed? Oh Ogastein, what a funny thought!

Our own President posted to tell everyone that he was "appalled that such a bill has appeared on the floor of the Senate." He wasn't the only one appalled though, Senator NES expressed a similar sentiment. When told to calm down by Speaker Oliver, NES said..."no." Oliver then threatened to put Oliver into a one day timeout and NES essentially would have none of that for expressing his (gasp!) opinion. The war of words got so confusing that people began resigning from positions left and right. It was getting crazy and heated and no one was quite sure if they were watching the Senate or an episode of "Hell's Kitchen." Regardless, by the end of the kerfuffle we had lost a Senator, a Speaker and a whole lot of confidence in our elected officials.

So the one time this term that the Senate has a SERIOUS and SUBSTANTIVE bill come forward that is controversial, things go nuts. Is this the state of our Senate today, folks? I sure hope not because if it is then I fear for our legislative process. Shouldn't the Senate be open to discussing anything and only criticizing the merits of a BILL and moving forward from a heated reading? Apparently not. Instead, if a mistake is made, you're supposed to resign. What if the President of the region did that every time they messed up? We would have a TONNE of Presidents. Right now looking at the Senate, I have one thing to say. Come on! Grow up and get over it! If I was in the Senate, I know I'd be smothering myself in the sand right about now.
 
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The reaction to this bill was just...bad.

We need to be able to be against measures without totally going falling apart. This was a bad bill. But proposing a bad idea isn't an evil thing, nor is disagreeing with one.
 
Interesting stuff happens when I am at sleep... :blink:

I suggest the whole senate get some anger management therapy, for honestly this was truly appalling.

The bill from Klatonia reminded me of something that would have been typical of Falconias, extremely provocative (I wonder is this a typical Canadian thing?.. :lol:) and sadly our senate has not been able to deal with it maturely.

 
I find it appalling that even our President expressed such distaste towards Klat's bringing forward this bill. Admittedly, I find this idea as repulsive as most other Europeians here, but it just strikes me as beyond ridiculousness that Klat should be treated this way for bringing forward what's actually a reasonable option. It's reasonable not in that I think it should be adopted, but in that it's something that should be considered, if only to deliver an emphatic 'no' in reply.

The Senate reacted extremely badly to this, and on so many levels.

It strikes me as absurd that Klat should be treated as he was, despite the bill that was put up for consideration, and it similar strikes me as ridiculous that some of our most senior elected leaders behaved very badly, and even more of them in a means that hardly encourages people to bring forward any ideas that they have, for an open and free exchange of views.

I think it's a shame that, in the space of 24 hours, we've lost an excellent Senator and an excellent Speaker of the Senate through this debacle, and Europeia is definitely very much worse off for this complete cataclysm.
 
I would like to state that there were at least two Senators who didn't react badly at all to it, Jusduckria and Admiral Ackbar (ACKJVR) said little about it; and I would hope that my response wasn't that much of a self-destruction towards the Senate behavior or procedures.
 
Swakistek said:
[Klatonia brought] forward what's actually a reasonable option.
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I laughed so hard I spilled my cup of coffee. The rest of your post explains very well what you mean, but this is a great "out-of-context" quote.

Thank you for your support, Swak. I actually want to stress that it was the ideas (both of discussing the bill and the bill itself) that were treated badly. At no point was I (or did I feel like) the target of any comment made.
 
Crist Seymour said:
I would like to state that there were at least two Senators who didn't react badly at all to it, Jusduckria and Admiral Ackbar (ACKJVR) said little about it; and I would hope that my response wasn't that much of a self-destruction towards the Senate behavior or procedures.
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Witnessing the thread, I don't know how much online you were when this unfolded. If you weren't online there was not much you or the others could have done.

However I just wonder if you feel you, Jus and Admiral Ackbar could have done more to ease the tensions and to help to keep this within proportions?

To put it differently what lessons did you learn to prevent such a blow up in the future?

@Klat: good for you to rescind your resignation!
 
Crist Seymour said:
I would like to state that there were at least two Senators who didn't react badly at all to it, Jusduckria and Admiral Ackbar (ACKJVR) said little about it; and I would hope that my response wasn't that much of a self-destruction towards the Senate behavior or procedures.
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One of the things that I liked about your response was that, even though you were opposed to it, you were still offering constructive ideas as to amendments and so forth.

One thing that's starting to annoy me in all this is this "The Senate acted childish" "The Senate needs anger management" "The Senate needs to grow up".

There was a vigorous debate going on around the idea as to whether or not forum crashing could/should be condoned as a legitimate foreign policy/military tool. It was a very small number of members of the Senate who were seen to have pushed things over the edge. Up until that point, this was one of the most grown-up moments the Senate has had in a long time.

Further, I absolutely agree with Senator Klatonia when he said:

I take pride in having brought up, for the benefit of those who don't know anything about Foreign or Naval Affairs, like me, a hot topic that raised passions and kinda forced out an explanation.
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Concepts and topics like forum crashing, military tactics and strategy, Europeia's treaties with other regions and so forth tend to not get much discussion, unless and until there's an immediate situation staring us in the face. Speaking personally, for the longest time, I simply didn't care about the Navy. I still am not really all that interested in it.

But after a discussion like this, or after seeking out current and former Naval officials, I feel I've learned a great deal more, and can now use this new knowledge to help move forward.

The saddest thing about this whole incident is that it appears to have been the final straw for Ollie. As I told him shortly after he had resigned (apart from repeated attempts to convince him to rescind his resignation as Speaker) is that I was concerned that the credibility and authority of the position of Speaker may have been weakened by this incident.
 
carracalla said:
However I just wonder if you feel you, Jus and Admiral Ackbar could have done more to ease the tensions and to help to keep this within proportions?
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I think things escalated really fast, and there was a combination of factors (almost a "perfect storm") that worked to keep the tensions high.

To put it differently what lessons did you learn to prevent such a blow up in the future?
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The obvious , although unreasonable and simple-minded answer is "Don't propose controversial legislation". However, things are rarely obvious and simple.

Moving forward, I think a clear and unequivocal warning and reminder of the rules of protocol, decorum, and civility at the beginning of each debate on legislation could do a lot of good. And there's always disciplinary matters, although it seems odd that the Speaker isn't given much leeway there (if you actually read the Senate Protocol and Decorum Act).
 
Swak: The notion that Klat was treated "badly" and that the blame lies with anyone but himself for his resignation, which is now hopefully rescinded, is thoroughly untrue. He himself says so here (extract: "My bill, my consequences, my decision. Nobody was out of line" - so at least give the chap the decency of respecting his own opinion.

I don't think within the Senate, he was ever personally criticised, only his idea was, and I stand by my right to do that. I do not think the notion of Europeia considering forum destruction as a legitimate defence need ever have been discussed, and I think I was completely within my rights, and indeed *the right*, to call the concept a disgrace. It's unfortunate the subsequent debacle subtracted from an even greater and more unanimous rejection of the suggested concept.
 
Swakistek said:
I find it appalling that even our President expressed such distaste towards Klat's bringing forward this bill.
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I stand by my initial response. Never did I insult Senator Klatonia, but I certainly insulted the piece of legislation presented to the Senate. I was appalled that such a thing was brought to the floor. I am still appalled by the bill. It is a horrible, disastrous piece of legislation that, in my opinion, did not deserve to be written, let alone to be presented to the Senate. We, as Europeians, should be appalled by the suggestion that we engage in the acts we detest others for.

However, and this is a very large however, Senator Klatonia had every right to propose the bill, just as I had every right to voice my opinion on it. When it became clear that the bill would not just go away (as I very much wished it would), I did in fact present a clear, concise argument against its passage. As I have stated elsewhere, I will never allow such a bill to become law, and I will do everything within my power to destroy it. I have had too many dealings with forum crashers to even begin to mask my contempt for the idea that we would engage in such acts.
 
Yeah Swak, it wasn't a "reasonable option" :p
 
Another question to think about: what will happen to the critic system without Ollie's leadership?
 
McEntire said:
Another question to think about: what will happen to the critic system without Ollie's leadership?
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It wasn't exactly flourishing, twas practically dead anyway. That's why a Committee has been set up to look into formalising the system. I imagine Oliver will continue to contribute to that committee, as it's Chair.
 
North East Somerset said:
McEntire said:
Another question to think about: what will happen to the critic system without Ollie's leadership?
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It wasn't exactly flourishing, twas practically dead anyway. That's why a Committee has been set up to look into formalising the system. I imagine Oliver will continue to contribute to that committee, as it's Chair.
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How does formalizing the system fix the inherent problems it has (which I pointed out at the beginning of the term)?
 
I appreciate all the comments and discussion that have occurred as a result of the first episode of my new show, much thanks! One comment that stuck out the most that I thought I needed to address:

One thing that's starting to annoy me in all this is this "The Senate acted childish"[...]It was a very small number of members of the Senate who were seen to have pushed things over the edge.
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I think it's pretty clear that NES, Oliver, and Klatonia all acted brashly and without really thinking things through. Some would say that would constitute child like, no? These three members are not a very small number of Senators. If 3/6 of half represents a "very small number" in your mind, that's just simply incorrect. The Senate acted childish. Case closed.
 
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