Presidential Election Coverage

Calvin Coolidge · Oct 11, 2014

The vote count, nineteen hours in, is twenty-one for Malashaan, eleven for Abstain. The panel discusses the recent lack of political activity.

Panel said:
[12:50] <Notolecta> Here we have people who are both known workhorses and show good leadership skills, but we don't know how leadership over things like the senate, CA, and ministries will translate to leadership over the executive.
[12:50] <Writinglegend> What are we speaking of? xD
[12:51] <CalvinCoolidge> Read the coverage.
[12:51] <Writinglegend> Hmmm
[12:51] <CalvinCoolidge> It's all been posted.
[12:51] <Writinglegend>
[12:51] <CalvinCoolidge> Is there a way can know, then?
[12:51] <CalvinCoolidge> * we can
[12:53] <Notolecta> Unfortunately no, but I just wanted to ake it clear we don't have a gaurentee. Also not everyone agrees with my veiw of the president/vice-president dynamic of the president being a leader and the VP a workhorse.
[12:53] <Notolecta> We know this because I actually got votes that one time I ran for president.
[12:55] <Notolecta> Which makes me think, what we need is a good 3 candidate race.
[12:55] <Notolecta> I don't think we've had one since that election.
[12:56] == ProfessorHenn has changed nick to ProfessionallyAway
[12:57] <CalvinCoolidge> A three-candidate race would certainly be a refreshing change.
[12:57] <Writinglegend> It would be
[12:58] <Notolecta> I feel old now I'm remising about past elections.
[12:58] <Writinglegend>
[12:59] <CalvinCoolidge> Just shoot Shin. That'll make it easier.
[13:00] == r3n has joined #EBC
[13:02] == mode/#EBC [+v r3n] by CalvinCoolidge
[13:02] <PhDre> You are an old timer when everything used to be better
[13:03] <CalvinCoolidge> Candy bars were only five cents, and kids respected their elders.
[13:04] <Notolecta> If mala runs again in the next election and wins, we will have gone an entire year with only 3 presidents.
[13:04] <Writinglegend> :O
[13:05] <Notolecta> It's intreresting that we had bck to back multi termers.
[13:05] <CalvinCoolidge> That is interesting.
[13:07] <r3n> Good interesting or bad interesting, Noto?
[13:07] <Notolecta> I think it's probably bad.
[13:07] <Notolecta> Political stagnation. seems to be a trent recently.
[13:08] <Notolecta> back to back multi-termsers and now a one candidate election.
[13:08] <Notolecta> No real nail-bitters either.
[13:08] <CalvinCoolidge> You think that is a cause or correlation?
[13:10] <Notolecta> correlation.
[13:11] == Hy has joined #EBC
[13:11] == mode/#EBC [+v Hy] by CalvinCoolidge
[13:11] <Writinglegend> Hey Hy!
[13:11] <Notolecta> The cause is really public attitude.
[13:11] <Notolecta> Complacency and alloofness seem to be a trend.
[13:12] <r3n> I do not consider two back-to-back terms a bad thing
[13:12] <r3n> In fact, I consider it natural and desirable that someone with a good first term continue for a second
[13:12] <Notolecta> Anumia's 3 then krakens 2 shows stagnation
[13:12] <r3n> Long-term projects tend to take more than a single term to fully materialize
[13:13] <Notolecta> Kraken had an okay term not a great one.
[13:13] <r3n> I did consider Anumia's three terms a bad and unnecessary thing though
[13:13] <r3n> the third term, that is
[13:13] <Notolecta> I can see electing anumia the second time too, but the third was excessive.
[13:13] <r3n> I would agree with that. And I'd say that regardless of performance in the first two terms
[13:14] <r3n> I mean, if someone does awfully, obviously we shouldn't elect them for a second term, let alone a third one
[13:14] <r3n> But even if they had two strong terms, a third one is too long
[13:14] <r3n> and leads to stagnation
[13:14] <Notolecta> I also don't think it would be as big of a concern if it wasn't for the larger overaching trent of stagnation and complaceny present.
[13:15] <Notolecta> We seem to willing to just keep the status quo even if it's not working
[13:15] <r3n> As for Kraken, I think he would fall in the category where a second term is "natural and desirable"
[13:15] <r3n> his first term was good, and so was his second one
[13:15] <Notolecta> look at the GAP. it failed for 4 terms and still got it's 5th under kraken term 2.
[13:15] <Notolecta> I think his first was medocire and same with the second.
[13:16] <Notolecta> neither was bad, but really it was just a full good ministers pulling their weight really well.
[13:16] <Notolecta> few*
[13:16] <Rach> Noto... don't misspell Overreaching
[13:16] <Rach> overaching pings me :3
[13:16] <Notolecta> overarching is what I mean

Calvin Coolidge · Oct 11, 2014

The panel continues the discussion.

Panel said:
[13:18] <Notolecta> Ministries that failed under kraken either term failed hard, and he did little to intervene. No evidence of direct intervention and replacing ministers was extremely delayed.
[13:18] <Notolecta> If that type of presidency is considered good or great, we have a problem with what our standards are.
[13:19] <r3n> Which Ministries do you consider to have failed?
[13:19] <Notolecta> He wasn't a terrible president, but lots of improvement could have been made.
[13:19] <Writinglegend> Back
[13:19] <Notolecta> this term? GAP, interior(for most of the term), Navy.
[13:19] <Writinglegend> Mhm
[13:19] <Notolecta> FA did it's typical average FA term.
[13:20] <Notolecta> Only culture and comm did outstanding, and that was because of two amazing ministers.
[13:20] <Notolecta> Kraken doesn't get the credit there.
[13:20] <r3n> I tend to disagree on a few of these.
[13:21] <r3n> The Navy failed, yes. I agree with that.
[13:21] <r3n> I will comment on the GAP separately.
[13:22] <r3n> The interior continued performing effectively. We maintain the best recruitment infrastructure in the world, and thanks to naturalization we continued to gain new members during Kraken's terms
[13:22] <r3n> new members who make it to the forum, get involved and stay active
[13:22] <Notolecta> Bull
[13:22] <r3n> I would hardly call that failure
[13:22] <Notolecta> Recruiting maintained because little work is required now.
[13:23] <Notolecta> No progress on naturalisation was made untilt the very end under mouse.
[13:23] <r3n> Do you disagree that we have had a steady stream of new members?
[13:23] <r3n> There is a difference between not improving and not being effective
[13:24] <Notolecta> I disagree that they've been properly integrated.
[13:24] <r3n> I am not saying there was improvement
[13:24] <r3n> But I said that the department has a very strong infrastructure, and continued using it effectively
[13:24] <r3n> with the results showing
[13:24] <CalvinCoolidge> Might some of that have to do with the CA? I don't want to blame you, but it was very inactive for a while there.
[13:24] <Notolecta> Stagnation is not good.
[13:24] <r3n> so no, I do not call that a failure
[13:24] <Notolecta> only improvement is a sucess.
[13:24] <r3n> I disagree.
[13:25] <r3n> Maintaining what is effective is success in itself.
[13:25] <Notolecta> If we maintain stagnation the region dies.
[13:25] <r3n> And gaining new and active members is stagnation?
[13:25] <Notolecta> Name me knew members that have become involved?
[13:25] <Notolecta> Members that have joined this term.
[13:26] <CalvinCoolidge> Noto, did you see what I said about the CA?
[13:26] <r3n> http://s6.zetaboards.com/Europeia/members/?search_type=start&name=&group=0&sort=join_unix&order=d
[13:26] <r3n> there you go
[13:27] <r3n> I see several new citizens who have consistent posting activity
[13:27] <Notolecta> I don't think members not getting involved has to do with that because we saw under marnip and now that most of the activity in the CA is coming from the established.

Sopo · Oct 11, 2014

*yawns*

Calvin Coolidge · Oct 11, 2014

The panel's discussion shifts to integration.

Panel said:
[13:28] <Notolecta> went through those names, only one has really been involved in a ministry or in politics and only a bit.
[13:29] <Notolecta> looking about to the start of august.
[13:29] <r3n> It takes most new members a term to get strongly involved into politics
[13:30] <r3n> What is important is that they establish consistent activity
[13:30] <Notolecta> Most of them haven't
[13:30] <Notolecta> I'm not even talking influence when I say involved.
[13:30] <Notolecta> I just mean doing something
[13:31] <Writinglegend> Kounelli is on that list. Kounelli has been great in Culture
[13:31] <r3n> Harry McClain, Haley, Cadmus, Santa Costa Island, Kounelli, Fantome
[13:31] <Notolecta> Posting a little in the CA even a just a vote, or helping a tiny bit in a ministry even if it's just an idea.
[13:31] <Writinglegend> That's one
[13:31] <r3n> all these are consistently active new citizens
[13:31] <Notolecta> Kounelli is my one.
[13:31] <r3n> that seems like a good crop to me
[13:31] <r3n> and of course, there is Ninja Kittens in end July
[13:31] <Writinglegend> Mhm
[13:31] <Notolecta> Fantome, cadmus, haley, and harry have been active almost solely in non political ways.
[13:31] <r3n> So?
[13:32] <r3n> That's the gateway to politics in this region
[13:32] <Notolecta> Not intergrated.
[13:32] <r3n> Most people *don't* jump straight into politics
[13:32] <r3n> They are integrated as long as they become part of the community
[13:32] <Notolecta> The ones that stay around usually do some work.
[13:32] <Writinglegend> Hmmm
[13:32] <r3n> which happens by establishing consistent activity
[13:32] <r3n> and they will do work, eventually
[13:32] <Writinglegend> What about Santa Costa? The new Bar Chair?
[13:32] <r3n> It usually takes a term
[13:32] <r3n> I mentioned Santa Costa above
[13:32] <Notolecta> Santa costa is a grey area for me.
[13:33] <Notolecta> No r3n it doesn't
[13:33] == Hy has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
[13:33] <Notolecta> the ones that stick around usually at least vote in the CA or do a little in a ministry within a month.
[13:33] <r3n> Well, I disagree
[13:33] <r3n> and I'd like to think I know more about this area
[13:34] <r3n> And furthermore, you are seriously underestimating the importance of having additions to the community itself
[13:34] <r3n> even if members do not get involved in hard politics
[13:35] <Notolecta> I have no malice for those that don't get involved in hard politics, but stay aorund, but those individuals aren't the ones keeping the region alive.
[13:35] <r3n> But you are completely discarding them as "integrated members" of our community
[13:37] <Notolecta> I'm saying that when we speek of integration for the sake of interior we are talking about political involvement.
[13:38] <Notolecta> That's why so much of integration is explaining hwo the region works.
[13:38] <Notolecta> posting in the RS is something that is just going to happen or not depending on the individual.
[13:38] <r3n> Well, that's equivalent to how I described your position.
[13:39] <Notolecta> Also r3n not every member gets involved in the non-political ongoings.
[13:39] <r3n> That new community members who don't get involved in politics are basically to be disregarded
[13:39] <r3n> and that they don't count as "integrated" citizens
[13:39] <r3n> and of course, that's before getting to my other argument
[13:39] <r3n> that it usually takes a term for citizens to get properly involved
[13:40] <Notolecta> r3n you are completely shifting the disscussion
[13:40] <r3n> and it is important that they first maintain a consistent interest and presence in the community
[13:40] <r3n> And that, by this standard, interior has continued to be an effective ministry.
[13:40] <Notolecta> it's about interior, and in terms of interiors sucess non-political members do not count as integrated for determining their sucess.
[13:40] <r3n> I am not shifting the discussion
[13:41] <Notolecta> it meaning interior not their.
[13:41] <Notolecta> Yes you are
[13:41] <r3n> You say that members who don't get involved don't count as integated
[13:41] <r3n> I say they do
[13:41] <Notolecta> you are making it general about the importance of non-political members and not about interior.
[13:41] <Notolecta> For the purpose of judging interior you do?
[13:41] <r3n> I am making it about interior bringing integrated membrs to the community
[13:41] <Notolecta> because if so you are a fool.
[13:41] <r3n> And you disagree with my definition of what counts as integrated
[13:42] <r3n> pose your own definition
[13:42] <Notolecta> we can't count those people towards that.
[13:42] <r3n> and then use that to call interior a failure
[13:42] <Notolecta> for this context yes.
[13:42] <r3n> So, no, discussing the definition of "integrated member" is not shifting the discussion
[13:42] <r3n> it is an integral part of the discussion.

Calvin Coolidge · Oct 11, 2014

The panel continues discussing Interior.

Panel said:
[13:43] <Notolecta> it is when you are discussion the definition of integrated member in general and not in the context of judging interior.
[13:43] <r3n> I disagree that a different definition is necessary
[13:43] == Kraketopia has joined #EBC
[13:43] <Notolecta> definitions of terms change with context.
[13:43] <Kraketopia> Hello. I understand there's a panel going on.
[13:43] <r3n> The job of the interior is to bring itnegrated members, not a special type of integrated members
[13:43] <r3n> *integrated
[13:44] == mode/#EBC [+v Kraketopia] by CalvinCoolidge
[13:44] <r3n> It is very important that interior engages members so that they create a strong link to the forum community, stay active, and become eager to conrtibute
[13:44] <r3n> It is a chain
[13:44] <Notolecta> interior doesn't have any role in getting them to be involved non politically though, so it is not right to count non-political members towards the sucess of interior.
[13:44] <r3n> And this chain usually takes a term to get to the endgoal
[13:44] <Notolecta> because interior isn't responsible for it.
[13:44] <r3n> Interior has a huge role in that
[13:45] <r3n> Interior brings these members to the region
[13:45] <Notolecta> and don't go back to recruiting, since that is automated.
[13:45] <r3n> gets them interested in the forum
[13:45] <Notolecta> welcoming is also automated.
[13:45] <r3n> and makes them feel welcome in a huge and intimidating forum
[13:45] <r3n> *part* of welcoming is automated
[13:45] <r3n> There is a lot of manual welcoming happening, in terms of telegrams, pms, and skype
[13:46] <r3n> game-side activities
[13:46] <r3n> it's why I used the term "engagement" above
[13:46] <r3n> welcoming is now a multi-faceted operation
[13:46] <Notolecta> game-side activities are largely run by culture not interior.
[13:46] <r3n> It does not mean just telegramming members that enter the region
[13:46] <Notolecta> so you can't five interior credit for that.
[13:46] <Notolecta> give*
[13:46] <r3n> Interior also works on game-side activities
[13:47] <r3n> such as RMB posting
[13:48] <Notolecta> Got anything to back that up. You keep giving credit to interior for all these things I see no evidence of their involvement in.
[13:48] <r3n> It is thanks to the interior's multi-faceted approach to engaging new nations that we have such a good stream of new forum members that develop a link with the community, establish consistent activity, *and* become potential political contributors
[13:48] <r3n> I do. I see the member list I mentioned above
[13:48] <r3n> and I have knowledge of what interior does
[13:49] <Kraketopia> Are you seriously questioning r3n on the Interior? Lol, GG.
[13:49] <Notolecta> That isn't evidence that interior was responsible.
[13:49] <Writinglegend> I feel this. People need some time to be integrated into the community. We cannot expect all of them to begin poltical right away, but rather, get a feel for the community. The list includes some who have become active in some ministries (Kounelli) but others who have just sat there and voted for CA resolutions, and played Spam games. TBC
[13:49] <r3n> Who is responsible then?
[13:50] <Notolecta> The people who actually do the work, none of the work you have mentioned can be clearly attributed to interioir.
[13:50] <r3n> This work is coordinated by interior
[13:50] <r3n> It is done under the supervision of the interior, and undertaken by its members
[13:50] <r3n> which happen to be plentiful and act in diverse capacities
[13:50] <Notolecta> More talk, still no evidence.
[13:50] <CalvinCoolidge> Noto, why else would these people be coming in, if they weren't reached out to?
[13:50] <r3n> The evidence is in the members.
[13:50] <Notolecta> No it's not
[13:51] <r3n> Noto, I would like to see your alternative theory
[13:51] <r3n> as to who's bringing these members to the region
[13:51] <r3n> because you say it's not interior
[13:51] <r3n> And I would like to see your evidence for this theory
[13:51] <Notolecta> Into the region? recruting, which is automated and not done by any person.
[13:51] <r3n> Into the forum, sorry
[13:51] <Notolecta> others come because of FA.
[13:52] <Notolecta> Some come to the forum on their own from the rmb, others from the again automated welcoming tg's.
[13:52] <r3n> From the list of members I mentioned above, I don't recognize any of them as having any prior involvement in NS GP
[13:53] <r3n> So, I don't see any evidence it's FA
[13:53] <r3n> RMB activity is boosted by interior efforts
[13:53] <r3n> that to me looks like interior
[13:53] <Notolecta> I'm talking in general
[13:53] <r3n> automated telegrams, sure, but those are worked, maintained, and improved upon by interior
[13:54] <CalvinCoolidge> Noto, what is your point here?
[13:54] <Notolecta> RMB activity doesn't bring them to the forums though, there is no evidence of that, nor is theri evidence that interior creates that since many of the active rmb participants aren't members of interior and were active ont he rmb when I was MoI and not involved in the rmb
[13:54] <r3n> There is storng evidence of that.
[13:54] <r3n> I have the evidence. Not just from Europeia, but from multiple regions
[13:54] <Notolecta> my point is r3n is making a lot of claims abou all this work interior is doing, but can't back it up.
[13:54] <r3n> I am backing it up
[13:55] <r3n> New and active members
[13:55] <Notolecta> I don't believe anything without evidecne, and he can't give me any proof of actual work done by interoir.
[13:55] <r3n> And I present a perfectly rational and intutiive theory as to why they are coming
[13:55] <r3n> whereas you are presenting a counterintuitive theory, that all of these efforts have no effect
[13:55] <Notolecta> you keep saying the same thing, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not logical
[13:55] <CalvinCoolidge> I think he's backed it up fairly conclusively.
[13:55] <r3n> there is a thing called occam's razor Noto
[13:55] <r3n> I would say it is your argument that is illogical here
[13:55] <Notolecta> new members do not mean that interior brought them here.
[13:55] <r3n> counterintuitive
[13:56] <Notolecta> there is nothing to support such a leap.
[13:56] <CalvinCoolidge> What evidence do you want, then?
[13:56] <r3n> They come through some effort
[13:56] <r3n> I say it's the interior's effort
[13:56] <r3n> you say it's not
[13:56] <r3n> but you don't offer an alternative
[13:56] <Notolecta> show me these "efforts.
[13:56] <r3n> so, you are making the leap there
[13:56] <Notolecta> that's the evidence I ask for, but you can't provide them
[13:57] <Notolecta> I don't have to
[13:57] <r3n> RMB posts, telegrams, manual and automated, PMs
[13:57] <Notolecta> You have to prove your theory I don't have to disprove it.
[13:57] <r3n> I have provided plenty of evidence.
[13:57] <r3n> Also, my theory is a well established one
[13:57] <r3n> you are the one challenging it
[13:57] <Notolecta> Automated tgs aren't work, pms are after they are already on the fourms.
[13:57] <r3n> saying that the interior's efforts have no effect
[13:57] <r3n> that's a new theory
[13:58] <r3n> a counterintuitive one
[13:58] <r3n> that you need to prove
[13:58] <Notolecta> show me evidence that the rmb activity if caused by interior.
[13:58] <Notolecta> No
[13:58] <r3n> Yes
[13:58] <Notolecta> I'm not giving a theory.
[13:58] <Notolecta> I'm quesitoning yours.
[13:58] <r3n> You are giving a theory
[13:58] <Notolecta> you prove your theory I don't disprove it
[13:58] <r3n> Questioning a well-established theory is a new theory Noto
[13:58] <Notolecta> no it's not
[13:58] <r3n> If I question Newton's laws, I am making up a theory myself
[13:59] <Notolecta> you are asking me to disprove, that is not how it works.
[13:59] <r3n> and given how well established that theory is, I need to have pretty damn good evidence discrediting it
[13:59] <Notolecta> No you aren't
[13:59] <r3n> Well, I have given you my evidence
[13:59] <r3n> RMB posts, telegrams, manual and automated, PMs
[13:59] <Notolecta> but you aren't
[13:59] <Notolecta> you are giving me general claims that are unsupported.
[13:59] <r3n> Alright, let's get to evidence then
[14:00] <r3n> or rather, to more evidence
[14:00] <CalvinCoolidge> I feel like we are moving off-topic, almost.
[14:00] <Notolecta> show me interiors involvement in rmb activity because it was active when interior was completely uninvolved in the rmb.
[14:00] <r3n> Well, I can pull Skype logs with many interior members
[14:00] <r3n> where we discuss RMB activity
[14:01] <Notolecta> I can discuss somehting doesn't make me responsible for it does it?
[14:01] <Notolecta> Prove interior is responsible for rmb activity.
[14:01] <r3n> But the RMB is active, isn't it?
[14:01] <r3n> And many of the posts are interior members
[14:01] <r3n> announcing forum activities
[14:02] <r3n> as has been emphasized by interior that should happen
[14:02] <r3n> this seems like a rather strong link to me
[14:02] <Notolecta> CAH, town, themed weeks, polls, those are organized by culture.
[14:02] <Notolecta> Not interior.
[14:02] <r3n> Interior has made a push for these events to be announced and promoted in the RMB
[14:02] <r3n> as well as by region-wide telegrams
[14:02] <r3n> frequent telegrams
[14:02] <r3n> and these actions were taken by interior AMs, in coordination with other ministries
[14:03] <r3n> so, that's interior
[14:03] <Notolecta> there is no point in continuing.
[14:03] <r3n> Interior is not isolated from the rest of the government
[14:03] <CalvinCoolidge> Noto, even if you are right, that Interior didn't do the work to bring in these newcomers (though I think the evidence shows otherwise) I feel this conversation is going in circles, and we would be better served discussing the next term, rather than the past.
[14:03] <Kraketopia> There is no point in continuing, r3n has beat you at every turn.
[14:03] <Notolecta> I need actual evidence, which you are unwilling or perhaps legally unable to provide.
[14:04] <r3n> I am fine with ending discussion of interior.

Calvin Coolidge · Oct 11, 2014

Twenty hours in, the vote is twenty-three for Malashaan, and eleven for Abstain. The panel moves on to discuss the GAP.

Panel said:
[14:07] <r3n> I wanted to go back to the GAP briefly.
[14:07] <r3n> I'll admit fully that I have no idea what the GAP has been doing. I am not involved in that Ministry.
[14:07] <Notolecta> I do not know that there is any point.
[14:08] <r3n> But I have not seen any hard results that could be attributed to that Ministry.
[14:08] <Notolecta> to discuss it at this point.
[14:08] <r3n> So I would be inclined to agree with Noto that it has been a failed endeavor
[14:08] <CalvinCoolidge> I think the GAP is one of the things we should be discussing.
[14:08] <r3n> I do not think that is necessarily for lack of effort.
[14:08] <Writinglegend> Agreed
[14:08] <r3n> But it is because it is an ill-thought concept.
[14:08] <Writinglegend> with Calvin
[14:08] <Notolecta> I agree completely actually r3n
[14:09] <CalvinCoolidge> Will moving it to FA have enough of an impact, you think?
[14:09] <r3n> It is a scheme that has been proven, again and again and in multiple regions and multiple times, that does not work.
[14:09] <r3n> sorry, the above isn't well worded
[14:09] <PhDre> moving it to FA will not change much
[14:09] <Kraketopia> The GAP has been reasonably successful under Mal's tenure
[14:09] <Notolecta> there isn't any clear logical benefit from the gap.
[14:09] <Notolecta> ACtive =/= sucess.
[14:09] <PhDre> I think it has been successful in that it has been active
[14:10] <r3n> It is a scheme proven, again and again and in multiple regions and multiple times, to be hard to materialize.
[14:10] <Kraketopia> I'm not sure it deserves the full focus of a ministry, and support Mal's plan in that regard.
[14:10] <PhDre> And that is a relative success for the GAP
[14:10] <Kraketopia> But there are regions the GAP makes sense for.
[14:10] <r3n> I doubt that moving it to FA will change things
[14:10] <Notolecta> unless the point of the GAP is to gain activity.
[14:10] <r3n> again, it's not a problem of how we are trying to making it work
[14:10] <r3n> *make
[14:10] <Notolecta> In which case there are better ways
[14:10] <r3n> it is an inherent problem in the idea
[14:10] <PhDre> The regions that the GAP makes sense for - those are not the regions Euro should be going after. Middler sized regions rather than regions in the single digits are a better bet
[14:10] <r3n> I have personal experience with GAP-like projects, in other regions
[14:10] <r3n> without exception, I have always been unsuccessful
[14:11] <r3n> I have also seen many similar attempts fail
[14:11] <Kraketopia> That is certainly an idea PhDre.
[14:11] <Writinglegend> It is
[14:11] <r3n> Which is why I consider it a useless endeavor
[14:11] <r3n> In fact, when Anumia was running for his first term
[14:11] <r3n> first recent term anyway
[14:11] <r3n> he had discussed the idea with me
[14:11] <CalvinCoolidge> r3n, why do you think this sort of thing fails to achieve success?
[14:11] <r3n> and I had recommended against it
[14:12] <Kraketopia> It's difficult because of the nature of small regions.
[14:12] <Notolecta> There isn't really any clear cut goal or logical benefit to it in the first place in my opinion.
[14:12] <r3n> Calvin, I do not think NS regions are large enough for this kind of decentralization to work.
[14:12] <r3n> NS communities rather
[14:13] <Notolecta> It's also a lot of reasources directed away from us
[14:13] <r3n> We need to either treat regions as useful diplomatic partners, or as targets for assimilation.
[14:13] <r3n> That's the hard truth
[14:13] <r3n> *we need to treat other regions as either useful...
[14:14] <r3n> If we turn the GAP into a, and I hate to use the term, "cultural imperialism" instrument
[14:14] <r3n> where we exert influence in other regions with a target to absorb their resources into ours
[14:14] <PhDre> Heres the crux of the issue - it shouldnt take 5 terms to figure this out..
[14:14] <r3n> then that could produce some results
[14:14] <r3n> but that's not what the GAP does
[14:15] <Notolecta> It didn't take everyone five terms.
[14:15] <r3n> If we turn the GAP into a diplomatic instrument, of essentially getting other regions indebted to us for our help, then maybe it could work
[14:15] <r3n> but again, that's not what the GAP does
[14:15] <Notolecta> Both what r3n is saying and what you are saying have been said before.
[14:16] <r3n> Dre is speaking for the region at large, I doubt he means every single member
[14:16] <Kraketopia> I must depart, ciao.
[14:16] <CalvinCoolidge> Good bye.
[14:16] <r3n> As I said, myself I have advised both Anumia and Kraketopia against it
[14:16] <Writinglegend> ciao
[14:16] <r3n> The reason why I have not made my opposition more vocal
[14:16] <Notolecta> I understand that, just wanted to make it clear that these aren't really new ideas.
[14:16] <r3n> is that, luckily, we have not actually wasted many resources on the GAP
[14:17] <r3n> so I do not consider it *that* detrimental
[14:17] <Notolecta> I think we've wasted more than people think.
[14:17] <r3n> to make its abolition a priority of mine
[14:17] == Kraketopia has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[14:17] <Notolecta> Not an insane amount, but if we didn't have people focusing on the GAP, we might have some more activity here.
[14:17] <CalvinCoolidge> But now that it is moving to FA, will it draw more resources away?
[14:18] <Notolecta> It's reasources are already established, it will not draw any reasources it didn't already.
[14:18] == Hy_ has joined #EBC
[14:18] <r3n> I hope it won't draw any more resources
[14:18] <Notolecta> even if it does I wouldn't suspect it'd draw significantly more.

Malashaan · Oct 11, 2014

I've said this elsewhere, but one of the key things about what I've done in GAP in the last month is that it can now operate with minimal resources. In that capacity, it operates exactly as r3n theorizes it could - we provide assistance to smaller regions with minimal resource drain which creates a pool of good will towards us which we may be able to draw from in future. If the region succeeds, great - new ally. If not, many small regions form, fail, and the founders ultimately end up being major players in larger regions that they join after realizing that founding their own from scratch is very hard.

Notolecta · Oct 11, 2014

Malashaan said:
I've said this elsewhere, but one of the key things about what I've done in GAP in the last month is that it can now operate with minimal resources. In that capacity, it operates exactly as r3n theorizes it could - we provide assistance to smaller regions with minimal resource drain which creates a pool of good will towards us which we may be able to draw from in future. If the region succeeds, great - new ally. If not, many small regions form, fail, and the founders ultimately end up being major players in larger regions that they join after realizing that founding their own from scratch is very hard.

I don't think that is what r3n was saying.

Malashaan · Oct 11, 2014

<r3n> If we turn the GAP into a diplomatic instrument, of essentially getting other regions indebted to us for our help, then maybe it could work

It's great when regions do feel they owe us for helping them. It is a logical extension of that that there is also value in individuals feeling that and taking that to other regions.

Calvin Coolidge · Oct 11, 2014

With less than two hours until the polls close, the vote count now stands at Malashaan with twenty-four votes, and Abstain with twelve. With the time and number of votes left, it seems impossible for Malashaan to lose now.

Mousebumples · Oct 11, 2014

For the record, as Interior Minister over the course of parts of at least 3 terms, I wholly rejected almost every "theory" or "premise" that Noto tried to advance about Interior has failed to "integrate new members."

The Patron Program assigns Patrons to all newcomers, to help answer any questions and guide them after they reach the forums. (This is not automated.) We also work to develop the Newcomer's Handbook - and some of the new pieces that I published have been in the works for awhile. I have encouraged other ministers to post more gameside (i.e. Culture's games), and not to say that "it's ONLY because of Interior" that some of those players ended up joining the forum ... but to say that Culture gets 100% of the credit there seems unfair, too.

So far as "recruitment, which is no work at all" - that's also a complete load of bullshit. We continually revise and try new recruitment telegrams. Yes, the sending of those telegrams is automated, but I have yet to find a good computer program that will draft an effective recruitment TG for us. We try various themed telegrams, and we also recently reintroduced a new "manual recruitment push." The background planning started earlier in this term, and while I was the one to "launch it," that's not to say that that was all my doing by any stretch.

A lot of what goes on in Interior is in hidden subforums. And there's probably where a lot of the "evidence" that Noto is demanding exists.

However, to claim that citizens need to be disclosing protected information from hidden subforums in order to "prove him wrong" seems completely insane to me.

Noto, I respect you in many areas, but Interior has changed in many MANY ways since I took over about 6 months ago. Things are nothing like what they were in Interior years ago - when you were Interior Minister - and to try to compare the two terms seems wholly illogical.

Notolecta · Oct 11, 2014

Mousebumples said:
For the record, as Interior Minister over the course of parts of at least 3 terms, I wholly rejected almost every "theory" or "premise" that Noto tried to advance about Interior has failed to "integrate new members."

The Patron Program assigns Patrons to all newcomers, to help answer any questions and guide them after they reach the forums. (This is not automated.) We also work to develop the Newcomer's Handbook - and some of the new pieces that I published have been in the works for awhile. I have encouraged other ministers to post more gameside (i.e. Culture's games), and not to say that "it's ONLY because of Interior" that some of those players ended up joining the forum ... but to say that Culture gets 100% of the credit there seems unfair, too.

So far as "recruitment, which is no work at all" - that's also a complete load of bullshit. We continually revise and try new recruitment telegrams. Yes, the sending of those telegrams is automated, but I have yet to find a good computer program that will draft an effective recruitment TG for us. We try various themed telegrams, and we also recently reintroduced a new "manual recruitment push." The background planning started earlier in this term, and while I was the one to "launch it," that's not to say that that was all my doing by any stretch.

A lot of what goes on in Interior is in hidden subforums. And there's probably where a lot of the "evidence" that Noto is demanding exists.

However, to claim that citizens need to be disclosing protected information from hidden subforums in order to "prove him wrong" seems completely insane to me.

Noto, I respect you in many areas, but Interior has changed in many MANY ways since I took over about 6 months ago. Things are nothing like what they were in Interior years ago - when you were Interior Minister - and to try to compare the two terms seems wholly illogical.

I love how you ignore that I specifically said before you took over this term. Also I wasn't asking anyone to disprove me nor was I presenting any claim. I was simply disputing a claim made by r3n. I never demanded that classified information be revealed; I simply stated that I can't accept a claim as true without actual evidence. That doesn't make it false, just means it isn't necessarily true.

My reference to my term was not implying that the situation was the same. It was solely about the rmb. RMB activity would still exist without interior and the implication that the interior is somehow the driver of all rmb activity is absurd.

Also keep in mind that r3n's main argument, which he repeated many times, was that someone had to be the reason they are joining the forum so interior has to be the one responsible. That is logically flawed and culture events, which I don't give an ounce of credit for to interior because it does, were a valid example of something that could be responsible that isn't interior.

Mousebumples · Oct 11, 2014

I love how you ignore that I specifically said before you took over this term. Also I wasn't asking anyone to disprove me nor was I presenting any claim. I was simply disputing a claim made by r3n. I never demanded that classified information be revealed; I simply stated that I can't accept a claim as true without actual evidence. That doesn't make it false, just means it isn't necessarily true.

I have been active as an AM in Interior when I was not Minister. And everything that I mentioned (including the recent new Manual Recruiting launch) was already in progress before I took over again this term. I did not ignore what you said. However, it appears that you may have some reading comprehension issues yourself.

My reference to my term was not implying that the situation was the same. It was solely about the rmb. RMB activity would still exist without interior and the implication that the interior is somehow the driver of all rmb activity is absurd.

RMB activity does exist without Interior. I never said anywhere that Interior is the driver of ALL RMB activity. However, RMB activity that specifically tries to orient game-only players towards joining the forums? Or RMB activity that is more geared towards getting game-only players to interact with forum-players? Or RMB activity that is geared towards bringing the level of discourse above general "How are you?" / "Good, you?" spam? A lot of that has been driven by Interior - including by AMs, which I believe is what I said before.

Also keep in mind that r3n's main argument, which he repeated many times, was that someone had to be the reason they are joining the forum so interior has to be the one responsible. That is logically flawed and culture events, which I don't give an ounce of credit for to interior because it does, were a valid example of something that could be responsible that isn't interior.

Wow, you are really REALLY oversimplifying r3n's main argument. Seriously, the whole "issue" here stems from your statement ... and let me quote you accurately here:

[13:37] <Notolecta> I'm saying that when we speek of integration for the sake of interior we are talking about political involvement.

That is NOT how I view integration. That is not how r3n views integration. So far as I know, that is not how Anumia or Kraken view integration.

Your whole argument is founded upon this false premise that if people aren't integrated to do "political things" those new members and new citizens are a waste of time/space/bytes. Because your original premise is wholly inaccurate - based off of the current intention and aims of the Interior ministry - your conclusions that follow are just as faulty.

Calvin Coolidge · Oct 11, 2014

The election has now ended, with Malashaan winning twenty-five to twelve over Abstain.

Notolecta · Oct 12, 2014

Mousebumples said:
[13:37] <Notolecta> I'm saying that when we speek of integration for the sake of interior we are talking about political involvement.

Click to expand...

That is NOT how I view integration. That is not how r3n views integration. So far as I know, that is not how Anumia or Kraken view integration.

Your whole argument is founded upon this false premise that if people aren't integrated to do "political things" those new members and new citizens are a waste of time/space/bytes. Because your original premise is wholly inaccurate - based off of the current intention and aims of the Interior ministry - your conclusions that follow are just as faulty.

Actually that wasn't my argument. My argument was that the only indicator you can use for interior integration efforts is politically active newcomers because this is the only thing I believe interior efforts have a real effort on. I believe this because that is the only thing I've seen evidence for effects on. If you have any data that shows after implementing efforts(beyond welcoming tgs which were already being done) to get people on the forums the number of new members posting frequently increased, please let me know and I will naturally change my view of what interior should be focusing on, but until then the only thing I see evidence the interior integration efforts can effect is getting people politically active and we've been no more successful at that now than in the past.

This has nothing to do with those members being unimportant, or a waste of space. I never said that. Only that I don't see clear evidence that interior is responsible, which is why the rest of the conversation regarding evidence of interiors impact on getting those members here, which is when we come to this issue:

Also keep in mind that r3n's main argument, which he repeated many times, was that someone had to be the reason they are joining the forum so interior has to be the one responsible. That is logically flawed and culture events, which I don't give an ounce of credit for to interior because it does, were a valid example of something that could be responsible that isn't interior.

Click to expand...

Wow, you are really REALLY oversimplifying r3n's main argument.

You see this was r3ns evidence that interior's integration efforts has an impact on getting people on the forums, that there are new people on the forums. You think I'm oversimplifying that?

[13:48] <Notolecta> Got anything to back that up. You keep giving credit to interior for all these things I see no evidence of their involvement in.
...
[13:48] <r3n> I do. I see the member list I mentioned above

[13:50] <r3n> The evidence is in the members.

[13:54] <Notolecta> my point is r3n is making a lot of claims abou all this work interior is doing, but can't back it up.
[13:54] <r3n> I am backing it up
[13:55] <r3n> New and active members

Similar argument in relation to rmb activity:

[14:01] <Notolecta> Prove interior is responsible for rmb activity.
[14:01] <r3n> But the RMB is active, isn't it?

Do you not see the inherit flaw in this kind of "evidence". I'm not saying that there is no point to interior either, nor that expanded efforts to get members on the forums or get them non-politically active(although the focus should be on politically active because it's the lifeblood of the region) should stop or are useless; what I am saying is that judging interior assuming these efforts have had impacts when no evidence of an impact(preferably by data showing an increase in new forum members or new active forum members shortly after the efforts were implemented that can't be attributed to normal fluctuation.) is unreasonable.

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