Four Reasons to Jump Into Europeian Law
A special feature from the Ministry of Justice
Written by Attorney General Sopo
As we seek to revamp how we approach legal education in Europeia and the functions of the Ministry of Justice, I approached five notable Europeians – past and present justices, senators, and attorneys general – to better understand what drew them to Europeian law and what continues to excite them today. Why jump into Europeian law? Here’s what the experts had to say:
Quotes were edited for length and clarity, but the full transcripts are available at the end.
1) We actually follow our laws.
Even when it’s inconvenient or complicated.
Malashaan: “I had been playing NationStates for several years when I joined Europeia. I was drawn to the region because it took it's legal system seriously. The other regions I had been involved with were very results-driven. If the law was inconvenient, many viewed that as justification to ignore it, rather than try and fix it.”
Drecq: “We all, of course, know regions that have far fewer laws and far shorter laws than we do, but by and large they get away with it by simply ignoring the law when it isn't practical to follow it. We don't. Europeia follows the rule of law. And to do that with as little law for any given situation we actually have, compared to real life, is actually amazing.”
2) We have a rich and interesting legal history.
Dating back to the founding of the region almost 15 years ago.
Prim: “In comparison to most of NationStates, I think we probably have one of the most robust and well-defined index of laws. It is definitely a legal scholar's go-to region, I would think. Having many legally minded players refining our system for over a decade can really establish a solid set of laws.”
Darkslayer: “…it would be disservice to fail to mention our rich history of judicial precedent. The fact that at times, we can cite previous precedent from many years ago in the region, serves as a constant reminder of our rich legal system.”
Lloenflys: “Certain basic elements of the law aren’t hard to do, and most anyone can at least fake a basic structure of a legal system. Making one that is internally coherent, with few loopholes, and that functions pretty much how you want it to function is much more difficult. It is extremely clear that Euro has been blessed with experienced and/or thoughtful legal minds in the past who have done most of the things you would want to do in order to have a functioning legal system.”
3) Our legal system is both complex and approachable.
Blending different legal traditions with our community’s unique needs.
Drecq: “It helps, of course, that Europeian law is fairly fun and interesting. It isn't overly complex, so it doesn't take the equivalent amount of study and dedication as real-life law does, but it mixes American, British, and continental European legal traditions and ideas and it does so, more or less, in a way that is cogent. And in those small areas where it isn't necessarily logical or clear which legal tradition to follow, that is often where the most fun debating is to be had.”
Mal: “It has always fascinated me how our laws in some ways mirror real life laws, but that we are very focused on making them relevant to the region rather than role play. It leads to an interesting body of law that is both familiar but very different from real life law. For example, we have a criminal code, but no concept of murder, assault, etc., because there is no risk of Europeians causing physical harm to each other within the game, but we have a very strong focus on identity-related offenses such as impersonating others because our on-line environment presents a high risk for such behavior.”
Dark: “One of the most interesting system of our laws, is the efficient implementation and existence of the Ubi Jus Ibi Remedium principle, a principle from equity law which posited that when there is a right, there is a remedy. We are a region of laws. When a right provided to you is abridged, hindered, or otherwise attacked, then you have a remedy to rectify that.”
4) Practice makes perfect.
And people want to help you learn.
Lloen: “The best way to learn is to try. I would start by reading the laws that are in place to get a feel for how they tend to be drafted. Then I would practice writing laws and ask the AG, a law clerk, or another respected Euro legal mind to critique it. That’s how you start to get more nuance in word choice and sentence structure… Practice, practice, practice!”
Prim: “…ask questions in the Grand Hall, participate in discussions on legislation, and become a law clerk. Find someone in the region who loves to talk about the law (Europeian and RL), people like Dark, Lloen, Drecq, Mal -- and participate in discussions with them and don't be afraid to ask questions. Almost no one in Europeia knows everything in the law, people discover new intricacies all the time, it just takes a fresh set of eyes.”
Drecq: “Join the Law Clerks. You will find a group of like-minded individuals to discuss with and have access to, at the very least, my old training document pinned in the Law Clerks subforum, which gives an excellent basic introductory overview of how to interpret laws. Then read our laws. I suggest starting with the Charter of Rights and then the Constitution. Everything else can wait.”
Mal: “The people who fail to develop into successful legislators or lawyers broadly fall into two groups: (1) those who refuse to listen to experts; and (2) those who aren't willing to try. The best way to learn is through doing and getting feedback… We all started in the same place and developed with the help of others.”
Dark: “More theoretically a good way to understand law is by speaking to an individual who is well-versed with an understanding of either Europeian or real-life law—usually, real life lawyers in Europeia are of course, well understanding of Europeian law.”
Like what you’ve read? Consider becoming a law clerk to delve into the law!
Special thanks to @Drecq, @Malashaan, @Darkslayer, @Lloenflys, and @Prim for contributing to this project.
1) What drew you to get involved in Europeian Law - the Senate, Court, etc?
Prim: I was interested in the Senate from the start: forming laws, reading about how Europeia organized itself. On getting more involved in legal interpretation, though, probably Drecq. He was the AG when I first joined as a Law Clerk and over several internal legal discussions in the MoJ, I started really getting interested in how the law meshes together and how to apply different interpretive methods.
Drecq: I'm like one of those amazon boxes you open up and the thing inside is already broken because someone at the factory or the distribution center dropped it. I came to Euro pre-broken. I've always been interested in the law and that is why I chose to study law in real life and that then naturally pushed me towards involving myself in Europeian law. It helps, of course, that Europeian law is fairly fun and interesting. It isn't overly complex, so it doesn't take the equivalent amount of study and dedication as real life law does, but it mixes American, British, and continental European legal traditions and ideas and it does so, more or less, in a way that is cogent. And in those small areas where it isn't necessarily logical or clear which legal tradition to follow, that is often where the most fun debating is to be had.
Dark: As someone who presently studies and works in the legal industry, it is absolutely a no-brainer for me to be attracted to that in a political simulator. Thus, as an individual with a keen interest in the legal world, I wanted to engage myself as much as possible to the legal environment in Europeia—the Senate, Judiciary, and in the Executive. Throughout my time, I have been lucky enough to help craft law reforms, interpret and implement a view on law interpretation, and to execute such laws in the region. There is plenty to do—so if law interests you for example, but writing law does not, our justice system exists as a core mechanism which can always engage other focused individuals. Alternatively, the execution of such law, is also a different route you are able to entertain.
Mal: I had been playing NationStates for several years when I joined Europeia. I was drawn to the region because it took it's legal system seriously. The other regions I had been involved with were very results-driven. If the law was inconvenient, many viewed that as justification to ignore it, rather than try and fix it. One I had joined, I became frustrated that while the region had a well evolved body of law, it was hard to follow because there wasn't a well structured law indexlike we have today. I ran for Senate largely on a platform of creating a more organized system for recording current law so newcomers could more easily get up to speed. In hindsight, it didn't make much sense as a Senate platform, but it got me elected and the discussions it started led to the creation of the current law index, so I guess it worked. My election to the Senate happened to coincide with the drafting of Constitution V, so I quickly got embroiled in that process, which I thoroughly enjoyed and got me hooked on the Senate for many terms.
Lloen: I got involved with Euro law because that’s the type of thing that I do and am interested in elsewhere. I am a lawyer, I follow US legal system closely, and I think a lot about legal theory so it made sense to get involved in Euro’s legal system once I was here.
2) What do you find most interesting about our system of laws?
Prim: In comparison to most of Nationstates, I think we probably have one of the most robust and well-defined index of laws. It is definitely a legal scholar's go-to region, I would think. Having many legally minded players refining our system for over a decade can really establish a solid set of laws.
Drecq: I think I partly answered this already. The blending of several distinct (or in the case of British and American already somewhat overlapping) real life legal traditions makes it interesting and unique. But if I had to chose another thing, it is probably how much we can do with fairly little. We all, of course, know regions that have far fewer laws and far shorter laws than we do, but by and large they get away with it by simply ignoring the law when it isn't practical to follow it. We don't. Europeia follows the rule of law. And to do that with as little law for any given situation we actually have, compared to real life, is actually amazing.
Dark: One of the most interesting system of our laws, is the efficient implementation and existence of the Ubi Jus Ibi Remedium principle, a principle from equity law which posited that when there is a right, there is a remedy. We are a region of laws. When a right provided to you is abridged, hindered, or otherwise attacked, then you have a remedy to rectify that. Following on from this, it would be disservice to fail to mention our rich history of judicial precedent. The fact that at times, we can cite previous precedent from many years ago in the region, serves as a constant reminder of our rich legal system.
Mal: It has always fascinated me how our laws in some ways mirror real life laws, but that we are very focused on making them relevant to the region rather than role play. It leads to an interesting body of law that is both familiar but very different from real life law. For example, we have a criminal code, but no concept of murder, assault, etc., because there is no risk of Europeians causing physical harm to each other within the game, but we have a very strong focus on identity-related offenses such as impersonating others because our on-line environment presents a high risk for such behavior.
Lloen: The fact that it is as advanced as it is! Certain basic elements of the law aren’t hard to do, and most anyone can at least fake a basic structure of a legal system. Making one that is internally coherent, with few loopholes, and that functions pretty much how you want it to function is much more difficult. It is extremely clear that Euro has been blessed with experienced and/or thoughtful legal minds in the past who have done most of the things you would want to do in order to have a functioning legal system. Of the NS regions whose legal systems have been discussed with me, Euro seems to stand head and shoulders above.
3) What advice would you give to someone interested in Europeian law but not sure where to begin?
Prim: I would say to them: ask questions in the Grand Hall, participate in discussions on legislation, and become a law clerk (maybe less so this one, if the Legislative Assessments are being de-emphasized). Find someone in the region who loves to talk about the law (Europeian and RL), people like Dark, Lloen, Drecq, Mal -- and participate in discussions with them and don't be afraid to ask questions. Almost no one in Europeia knows everything in the law, people discover new intricacies all the time, it just takes a fresh set of eyes.
Drecq: Join the Law Clerks. You will find a group of like-minded individuals to discuss with and have access to, at the very least, my old training document pinned in the Law Clerks subforum, which gives an excellent basic introductory overview of how to interpret laws. Then read our laws. I suggest starting with the Charter of Rights and then the Constitution. Everything else can wait. Find a thing you think is interesting or aren't quite sure how to interpret. Discuss it with other Law Clerks or just legally interested individuals (there are a few of us here) until you have figured out how it works. Pick a new thing and rinse and repeat. In short order, you will know more about Europeian law than half the old timers.
Dark: There are multiple ways you can get involved! If you want to jump straight in practically – then the Senate is the best option for you. In this capacity, you are engaging directly with the law. When doing so, there are many factors to consider. I.e., the interpretation and implementation of such Act, whether there are any conflicts, and most importantly, whether it conflicts with any Constitutional statute. More theoretically a good way to understand law is by speaking to an individual who is well-versed with an understanding of either Europeian or real-life law—usually, real life lawyers in Europeia are of course, well understanding of Europeian law. There is nothing hurts by researching real-life law. As developing such research skills will prove pivotal to form a basic understanding of not only law, but how to research law.
Mal: Pick a topic that interests you and propose something. But listen to feedback. You don't need to be an expert on the law initially, but you need to be willing to listen to those that already are. If you have a goal in mind, many of us are willing to help you revise your proposed legislation to achieve that goal in a better way. The people who fail to develop into successful legislators or lawyers broadly fall into two groups: (1) those who refuse to listen to experts; and (2) those who aren't willing to try. The best way to learn is through doing and getting feedback. We all recognize when someone is new and has ideas but hasn't yet developed the skills and knowledge of our law to fully implement those ideas. There's no shame in getting help and taking time to learn. We all started in the same place and developed with the help of others.
Lloen: The best way to learn is to try. I would start by reading the laws that are in place to get a feel for how they tend to be drafted. Then I would practice writing laws and ask the AG, a law clerk, or another respected Euro legal mind to critique it. That’s how you start to get more nuance in word choice and sentence structure. Ultimately the goal is to be as clear and definite as possible in order to accomplish your goal and eliminate ambiguous meanings and avoid creating loopholes, so it’s really an exercise in learning specificity and clarity more than anything. Practice, practice, practice!
Prim: I was interested in the Senate from the start: forming laws, reading about how Europeia organized itself. On getting more involved in legal interpretation, though, probably Drecq. He was the AG when I first joined as a Law Clerk and over several internal legal discussions in the MoJ, I started really getting interested in how the law meshes together and how to apply different interpretive methods.
Drecq: I'm like one of those amazon boxes you open up and the thing inside is already broken because someone at the factory or the distribution center dropped it. I came to Euro pre-broken. I've always been interested in the law and that is why I chose to study law in real life and that then naturally pushed me towards involving myself in Europeian law. It helps, of course, that Europeian law is fairly fun and interesting. It isn't overly complex, so it doesn't take the equivalent amount of study and dedication as real life law does, but it mixes American, British, and continental European legal traditions and ideas and it does so, more or less, in a way that is cogent. And in those small areas where it isn't necessarily logical or clear which legal tradition to follow, that is often where the most fun debating is to be had.
Dark: As someone who presently studies and works in the legal industry, it is absolutely a no-brainer for me to be attracted to that in a political simulator. Thus, as an individual with a keen interest in the legal world, I wanted to engage myself as much as possible to the legal environment in Europeia—the Senate, Judiciary, and in the Executive. Throughout my time, I have been lucky enough to help craft law reforms, interpret and implement a view on law interpretation, and to execute such laws in the region. There is plenty to do—so if law interests you for example, but writing law does not, our justice system exists as a core mechanism which can always engage other focused individuals. Alternatively, the execution of such law, is also a different route you are able to entertain.
Mal: I had been playing NationStates for several years when I joined Europeia. I was drawn to the region because it took it's legal system seriously. The other regions I had been involved with were very results-driven. If the law was inconvenient, many viewed that as justification to ignore it, rather than try and fix it. One I had joined, I became frustrated that while the region had a well evolved body of law, it was hard to follow because there wasn't a well structured law indexlike we have today. I ran for Senate largely on a platform of creating a more organized system for recording current law so newcomers could more easily get up to speed. In hindsight, it didn't make much sense as a Senate platform, but it got me elected and the discussions it started led to the creation of the current law index, so I guess it worked. My election to the Senate happened to coincide with the drafting of Constitution V, so I quickly got embroiled in that process, which I thoroughly enjoyed and got me hooked on the Senate for many terms.
Lloen: I got involved with Euro law because that’s the type of thing that I do and am interested in elsewhere. I am a lawyer, I follow US legal system closely, and I think a lot about legal theory so it made sense to get involved in Euro’s legal system once I was here.
2) What do you find most interesting about our system of laws?
Prim: In comparison to most of Nationstates, I think we probably have one of the most robust and well-defined index of laws. It is definitely a legal scholar's go-to region, I would think. Having many legally minded players refining our system for over a decade can really establish a solid set of laws.
Drecq: I think I partly answered this already. The blending of several distinct (or in the case of British and American already somewhat overlapping) real life legal traditions makes it interesting and unique. But if I had to chose another thing, it is probably how much we can do with fairly little. We all, of course, know regions that have far fewer laws and far shorter laws than we do, but by and large they get away with it by simply ignoring the law when it isn't practical to follow it. We don't. Europeia follows the rule of law. And to do that with as little law for any given situation we actually have, compared to real life, is actually amazing.
Dark: One of the most interesting system of our laws, is the efficient implementation and existence of the Ubi Jus Ibi Remedium principle, a principle from equity law which posited that when there is a right, there is a remedy. We are a region of laws. When a right provided to you is abridged, hindered, or otherwise attacked, then you have a remedy to rectify that. Following on from this, it would be disservice to fail to mention our rich history of judicial precedent. The fact that at times, we can cite previous precedent from many years ago in the region, serves as a constant reminder of our rich legal system.
Mal: It has always fascinated me how our laws in some ways mirror real life laws, but that we are very focused on making them relevant to the region rather than role play. It leads to an interesting body of law that is both familiar but very different from real life law. For example, we have a criminal code, but no concept of murder, assault, etc., because there is no risk of Europeians causing physical harm to each other within the game, but we have a very strong focus on identity-related offenses such as impersonating others because our on-line environment presents a high risk for such behavior.
Lloen: The fact that it is as advanced as it is! Certain basic elements of the law aren’t hard to do, and most anyone can at least fake a basic structure of a legal system. Making one that is internally coherent, with few loopholes, and that functions pretty much how you want it to function is much more difficult. It is extremely clear that Euro has been blessed with experienced and/or thoughtful legal minds in the past who have done most of the things you would want to do in order to have a functioning legal system. Of the NS regions whose legal systems have been discussed with me, Euro seems to stand head and shoulders above.
3) What advice would you give to someone interested in Europeian law but not sure where to begin?
Prim: I would say to them: ask questions in the Grand Hall, participate in discussions on legislation, and become a law clerk (maybe less so this one, if the Legislative Assessments are being de-emphasized). Find someone in the region who loves to talk about the law (Europeian and RL), people like Dark, Lloen, Drecq, Mal -- and participate in discussions with them and don't be afraid to ask questions. Almost no one in Europeia knows everything in the law, people discover new intricacies all the time, it just takes a fresh set of eyes.
Drecq: Join the Law Clerks. You will find a group of like-minded individuals to discuss with and have access to, at the very least, my old training document pinned in the Law Clerks subforum, which gives an excellent basic introductory overview of how to interpret laws. Then read our laws. I suggest starting with the Charter of Rights and then the Constitution. Everything else can wait. Find a thing you think is interesting or aren't quite sure how to interpret. Discuss it with other Law Clerks or just legally interested individuals (there are a few of us here) until you have figured out how it works. Pick a new thing and rinse and repeat. In short order, you will know more about Europeian law than half the old timers.
Dark: There are multiple ways you can get involved! If you want to jump straight in practically – then the Senate is the best option for you. In this capacity, you are engaging directly with the law. When doing so, there are many factors to consider. I.e., the interpretation and implementation of such Act, whether there are any conflicts, and most importantly, whether it conflicts with any Constitutional statute. More theoretically a good way to understand law is by speaking to an individual who is well-versed with an understanding of either Europeian or real-life law—usually, real life lawyers in Europeia are of course, well understanding of Europeian law. There is nothing hurts by researching real-life law. As developing such research skills will prove pivotal to form a basic understanding of not only law, but how to research law.
Mal: Pick a topic that interests you and propose something. But listen to feedback. You don't need to be an expert on the law initially, but you need to be willing to listen to those that already are. If you have a goal in mind, many of us are willing to help you revise your proposed legislation to achieve that goal in a better way. The people who fail to develop into successful legislators or lawyers broadly fall into two groups: (1) those who refuse to listen to experts; and (2) those who aren't willing to try. The best way to learn is through doing and getting feedback. We all recognize when someone is new and has ideas but hasn't yet developed the skills and knowledge of our law to fully implement those ideas. There's no shame in getting help and taking time to learn. We all started in the same place and developed with the help of others.
Lloen: The best way to learn is to try. I would start by reading the laws that are in place to get a feel for how they tend to be drafted. Then I would practice writing laws and ask the AG, a law clerk, or another respected Euro legal mind to critique it. That’s how you start to get more nuance in word choice and sentence structure. Ultimately the goal is to be as clear and definite as possible in order to accomplish your goal and eliminate ambiguous meanings and avoid creating loopholes, so it’s really an exercise in learning specificity and clarity more than anything. Practice, practice, practice!
