Does the Senate Really Only Push Commas Around?

Hy said:
A man after my own heart. I, for one, agree with the ERI's stance and I think an analytical approach to what works? can only be good.
Thank you Hy. :)

Prim said:
When the legislation has been "perfected" or as near to it as possible, what then?
Do we sit around marveling at the wonderful unblemished edifice that we've created, while twiddling our thumbs?
This is a hypothetical because it is certainly not the case. The region is constantly evolving naturally over time, without structural changes, we moved to discord just two years ago, before that it was Skype and before that MSN (or I don't even know as it was way before my time). Each of these presented new legislative changes. The de facto law and community standards have evolved over time and that too causes legislative changes. Just look at the laws we have, so many are out of date, or could use a review. Thus, this question is not at all relevant to our present situation.

Lethen said:
That discussion has been had by so many players for so many years in so many regions in NS. We should be marveling at the fact that a region as old as our's is still as active *and* still draws in new players. But there's nothing you can do that isn't a stop-gap solution at this point, short of burning down everything and starting over...which would be temporary as well unless our brilliant legal minds and legislative drafters left.
I think, for what I have seen in NS, change for the sake of activity does not really work. Spiritus, of which I was once a member, cycled through 4 forms of government in the past year 3 of which did absolutely nothing to generate activity. It was because on a lower level, people had no interest in participating in the government in general, not that the form of government was not interesting enough for them.

HEM said:
Let's give credit where credit is due, this is a phenomenal rebuttal to my anti-Senate thesis and GraV did a stupendous job putting it together. Also, moving a radio discussion to print is a really cool integration - overall an A+ piece of media.
Thank you HEM

HEM said:
Now, have you won me over, of course not ( :p ). The idea of the Senate "pushing commas around" does not literally mean that the Senate passes no legislation or does no work, it means that the impact is superficial and limited. The "who's affected" application here is incredibly broad, and even then, roughly 50% of legislation only impacts Justices or the Attorney General. Yes, there are exceptions - notably the Hate Speech Non-Protection Act - but on the whole, this list reflects a series of non-consequential changes.
A lot of the bills passed the past two terms were criminal code amendments, which of course don't really have an effect until the crime is committed. I don't think that necessarily makes them non-consequential because they do help define what our community finds acceptable, and would have a massive negative impact should they not exist when undesirable actions are taken in the future. For now though, only the Attorney General (the default prosecutor) and the Court needs to be quite mindful of it's existence.

HEM said:
It seems that any potential major change, no matter how well considered or thought out, is destined to be characterized this way.
To be fair, in part that is because we don't fully agree on the problems. For instance, I see a Senate that doesn't truly represent the people as a problem. Others are perfectly content with a law writing club. So maybe that's the disconnect here.
For the record: this is not my intent at all. If a major change comes along that presents the plausible outcome of improving the region (beyond just allegedly increasing activity) I would support it. It is simply the fact that many of Prims current proposals simply do not do that.

HEM said:
With the social elements of this game becoming more appealing, and the political ones less so, we cannot partition a whole branch of our government exclusively for players who are in pre-law in real life. We can't make it about work that for many is so arduous they would never want to get involved with it.
I for the record have received moderate to good reviews on my Euro legal skills and in RL am a Freshman Finance major with absolutely zero RL law experience. So I don't think this is something that is really that hard if you take a bit of time to learn.

 
GraVandius said:
It is simply the fact that many of Prims current proposals simply do not do that.

To be fair, none of my proposals are final or functional legislative proposals. They are discussion topics that are being dismissed out of hand without serious discussion.

Nor have any alternatives been sincerely proposed - (save perhaps the EuroWorks program, which I would heartily support). But even on that measure, you claimed it would be impossible to legislate as it is under executive purview. I say you have no imagination for how things could be different.

There seem to be blinders narrowing the vision of some people here, allowing them only to see how things could be within the current legislative morass. We should be inventive, bold, creative, risk-taking.... not just for activity's sake, but for the spirit of political simulation. Not many people joined Euro to debate whether this bill or that bill should be merged, or who should be able to speak in a certain forum, or what titles people can use for how long. But for a dynamic political experience -
 
Comrade Prim said:
There seem to be blinders narrowing the vision of some people here, allowing them only to see how things could be within the current legislative morass. We should be inventive, bold, creative, risk-taking.... not just for activity's sake, but for the spirit of political simulation. Not many people joined Euro to debate whether this bill or that bill should be merged, or who should be able to speak in a certain forum, or what titles people can use for how long. But for a dynamic political experience -
Well, I agree with you here.

From what I've seen, later when there's too many political shenanigans others start to appreciate the less "dynamic" experience and more focus on mundane task of keeping things afloat.

But the initial thrills are worth remembering ^_^
 
The political simulation is all here. It is just you're not very good at convincing other people.

A political simulation doesn't mean you say "INNOVATION! MY WAY!" and you get it handed to you on a plate. You have to work for it.

Constitution V was a year long process. A -year-.
 
Radio was an innovation which was four months of working and testing. Now it seems like a natural fit.
 
I think it's telling that HEM, who seemingly should be most burnt out from political shenanigans and whom has lots investment into the region's status quo, is consistently one of the region's more radical members.

The success of this region has a lot less to do with our meticulously designed government system, and a lot more to do with the handwork of Europeians. We shouldn't be so afraid of changing of the system that even preliminary discussions are labeled as "basically attempting to light shit on fire."

And I have no idea what Hy is babbling about. I don't see anyone asking for change to be handed to them. We are working for it; one has to start somewhere.
 
hyanygo said:
The political simulation is all here. It is just you're not very good at convincing other people.
A political simulation doesn't mean you say "INNOVATION! MY WAY!" and you get it handed to you on a plate. You have to work for it.
Constitution V was a year long process. A -year-.
Hmmm, this seems in no way related to my ideas discussion post.

It literally had "Let's discuss" all over it. Nowhere did I say that these proposals needed to happen, nor did I demand anything happen quickly, or my way.

Which topic of mine did you read exactly? :unsure:

These ideas are not necessarily mine - no ill will would be had if any of these became official proposals. Feel free to tweak, adjust, or completely mangle any of these ideas into a proposal of your own! :)

I'm new so these ideas may be rejected out of hand simply because they're coming from someone new - that's fine. But if you feel strongly, drop a suggestion of something you might be more interested in.

Feel free to rip these ideas to shreds - I'm not married to any of them, just spitballing ideas to drive discussion.
None of these ideas are meant to be isolated - any of these could be combined with any other ideas.
 
"We should be inventive, bold, creative, risk-taking.... not just for activity's sake, but for the spirit of political simulation. Not many people joined Euro to debate whether this bill or that bill should be merged, or who should be able to speak in a certain forum, or what titles people can use for how long. But for a dynamic political experience -"

That. There is the root of my objection to both you and Prim. It immediately paints what we are doing as Not That. In the grand scheme of NS our set up is bold, inventive and risk-taking.

That's the entire point of the region. The grand instruments of the region: ministry work, recruitment and to an extent, legislation, are in the background in order to bring the lived in joy of social interaction to the foreground.
 
It seems like some of this may be a consequence of a government formed in the absence of the governed. It is a fun and exciting thing to build and perfect a legal system (if a legal system can truly be perfected), but one would think that the whole point of a legal system is to resolve disputes and make decisions, and the activity of a system would rely largely on there being disputes to resolve and decisions to make. But since this community isn't actually governed by the system it creates, it doesn't really feel needs, so the only existent source of the kind of stimulus for which a government exists is significant reform. So we feel we have nothing to do but burn down and restart, which would be a shame.

I mean, so much of what makes the political process interesting comes from the reality of its application. Centralization of power has been a major topic of discourse in many nations, historically, particularly in the way it bleeds into other affairs, but there's no need for such a conversation here because there's like a thousand people and this is a forum. Politics in the real world can be stupid and messy, but present within it are major questions about the relation of the government to the people and the decisions it gets to make, and Europeia will never see that because again, there are no decisions to make apart from governmental structure. Put simply, government makes a lot less sense when it isn't governing.

That being said, I'm sure there are probably ways to keep it interesting through the framework it currently possesses. But it takes a creativity in the evolution of the system where things can change without undergoing secondary succession.
 
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