Do People Actually Want to Be President? And Other Such Questions!

[JayDee]

I don’t remember what I answered for President to be exact but I do remember struggling a lot with whether or not I was still presently interested.

The Presidency took a lot out of me for what felt like very little benefit. It’s way too easy for me to look back on my terms and feel like I had failed when in reality it was a miracle we managed to keep our heads above water most of the time. I didn’t want to run for a second term but I felt duty bound to see through what I had started so it felt like a drag. I’m proud of my third term and I don’t regret fighting so hard for it, but it still feels like I left a lot on the table.

All in all, we had to endure a lot to basically maintain some semblance of status quo. I think for some the reality of the Presidency is becoming a greater toll than is worthwhile for a simple online game and for others it appears less accessible now than it did a year ago.

 

[HEM]

I obviously don't like the characterisation that me and my colleagues are unambitious and/or incompetent, I don't see it that way at all. GK used to be a very successful minister, and look at her now. Sincluda ran on Presidential tickets twice, with one especially competitive cycle. Ellenburg's run for President before, JayDee is certainly not an unambitious person, Istillian neither, having served in High Executive before (although perhaps a little busier in the current day because of IRL ongoings). Andusre is not an unambitious person given his region-building history and jumping into the Executive so quickly and bringing such value to our Gameside. Sarah and SkyGreen have served in the High Executive before as well. I also don't think it's fair to call myself unambitious just because I haven't run for President yet, setting up a run you're happy with is not necessarily always easy; the reason I've not been able to do one yet is not a lack of ambition, but other circumstances. I'm sure that's true for some others as well.

All that to say that I don't think it's fair to say our current ministers and civil servants are unambitious or incompetent, we've just had a shift in regional focus, some staffing issues, and less political excitement due to competent Presidents and some nice tech upgrades to reduce burnout. I'm sure that it wasn't the intention at all, but it read like the lack of political excitement and innovation is just a result of inherently unambitious and/or incompetent people being in the Executive, something that I don't think is a fair characterisation of the efforts of my colleagues nor myself.

I greatly appreciate you sharing your personal experience and story, but I do think it's a little uncharitable to characterize Sopo's post as calling all of those people you named -- or specific people in general -- incompetent or unambitious.

We have a region with a significant infrastructure, where the trains, generally run on time. That's nothing to sneeze at, and clearly those buttons and knobs aren't pushing themselves. We have great public servants who are doing good work.

But I think Sopo was speaking to broader cultural changes, some of which this poll itself picks up on! I mean, the point I made before is that interest in Cabinet has totally collapsed. That's quantifiable evidence that *something* has shifted with people's ambitions. I have made the point before that having two three-term Presidencies in a row is unprecedented evidence of that too -- though I suspect that will continue to be pooh-pooh'ed to some degree, which, fair enough.

But I truly believe these are introspective conversations that are important to have, especially as the People's Assembly wades through a series of reform-related conversations. If we can better align our governing structures and systems to people's ambitions and goals, our res publica and the individual experiences of players will both be better off!

 

[Vor]

the point I made before is that interest in Cabinet has totally collapsed. That's quantifiable evidence that *something* has shifted with people's ambitions.

Certainly! I don't know if I'd say collapsed generally, although you could certainly say that for something like Outreach. Either way, Sopo said not that, but:

I don't think we see as much of that raw ambition anymore, and, when we do, it is usually not tied in equal measure to competency. Some of our best ministers are also our least ambitious civil servants.

It becomes harder for me to read that as just citizens/staffers being generally less interested in Cabinet, given ministers are explicitly mentioned. I named the vast majority of the Cabinet in response. Being current ministers and people that have pursued plenty in Europeia due to their ambitions, alongside other reasons I mentioned in my response, I find the above implication unfair. I'd be happy to hear otherwise if I'm misunderstanding!

 

[Lethen]

This has been a really great discussion so far; so many good points! My first thought reading this, though, is that some of these are receiving significant bumps or drops based on who has held the office(s) and the narratives around them. For example, Vice Chancellor may be more appealing due to the more visible role my last few VCs have taken including the current officeholders - this was said by someone up-thread, but I thought it bore repeating. I can't speak to why there'd be a bump in the appeal for Supreme Chancellor though. I think that Vice President has seen a bump up because of how the office has been approached under @upc - GK is afforded a lot of flexibility but still takes on a very visible forward role. Outside of that structure, in any average Presidency, I'm not sure we'd see the same bump in VP appeal. Conversely, it's entirely possible that some less popular offices became that way because of how we've characterized the office (thankless, lots of recruitment, less "fun") and how we've naturally over-lionized anyone who's truly excelled at those offices in a leadership role. I'm not sure that makes total sense, though.

 

[SkyGreen]

I can't speak to why there'd be a bump in the appeal for Supreme Chancellor though.

We are all gunning for your position, youre essentially tenured

 

[SkyGreen]

Sorry for the double post

I don't think we see as much of that raw ambition anymore, and, when we do, it is usually not tied in equal measure to competency

I think Sopo's comment kind of rang true in a opposite direction. Instead of making me think about unambitious skilled civil servants, it made me think of situations where someone is ambitious but does not back it up with skills or hard work.

We often tell people to just y'know, run and try, and join a ministry, etc. This worked rather well, because even those who failed learned from their mistakes and improved. To paint a picture, my first Senate platform was really bad lol, like in no way was I ready to serve in the Senate. Through the help of kind people like Kuramia and Sopo, who asked well-intentioned questions, I was able to learn from my mistakes and improve. Similarly Izzy and Maowi have helped me learn the ropes when I first joined WAA.
But what happens if a person keeps making the same mistakes over and over? Do we just give in at some attempt and hope they magically improve in their new position?

 

[Sopo]

I obviously don't like the characterisation that me and my colleagues are unambitious and/or incompetent, I don't see it that way at all. GK used to be a very successful minister, and look at her now. Sincluda ran on Presidential tickets twice, with one especially competitive cycle. Ellenburg's run for President before, JayDee is certainly not an unambitious person, Istillian neither, having served in High Executive before (although perhaps a little busier in the current day because of IRL ongoings). Andusre is not an unambitious person given his region-building history and jumping into the Executive so quickly and bringing such value to our Gameside. Sarah and SkyGreen have served in the High Executive before as well. I also don't think it's fair to call myself unambitious just because I haven't run for President yet, setting up a run you're happy with is not necessarily always easy; the reason I've not been able to do one yet is not a lack of ambition, but other circumstances. I'm sure that's true for some others as well.

All that to say that I don't think it's fair to say our current ministers and civil servants are unambitious or incompetent, we've just had a shift in regional focus, some staffing issues, and less political excitement due to competent Presidents and some nice tech upgrades to reduce burnout. I'm sure that it wasn't the intention at all, but it read like the lack of political excitement and innovation is just a result of inherently unambitious and/or incompetent people being in the Executive, something that I don't think is a fair characterisation of the efforts of my colleagues nor myself.

For what it's worth, I meant ministers more broadly, not necessarily just the current set. But generally, the fact that you reacted poorly gives me hope that maybe there is more interest in running for president among current ministers than I would have assumed. Hopefully, that bears out in the upcoming election. I am happy to be wrong.

What I am trying to put my finger on is that there is less ladder-climbing than there once was. It feels more like people politely biding their time until they think it is their turn, rather than seizing the moment. To be clear - plenty of people in the past tried to seize the moment unsuccessfully. But they tried, and it made things fun. And sometimes a young upstart who was having a moment was successful (ex. Kraketopia elected president). Now, that doesn't feel possible. There aren't even any young upstarts in the Cabinet - GK is probably closest to that, and it's hard to count someone who already had a reputable, distinguished career (and a commendation) before arriving here. It's also likely a symptom of the region being older, the players being older, careers being longer, and all of us generally being more risk-averse.

But that brings us back to HEM's point on lack of interest in the Cabinet and a seeming overall decline in younger members moving up.

 

[upc]

and a commendation

she only got commended last term!!

 

[Sopo]

and a commendation

she only got commended last term!!

ok yes but for things that happened before she was here

 

[Rand]

snip

 

[Sopo]

It feels more like people politely biding their time until they think it is their turn, rather than seizing the moment.

I know at least one recent President who was impolitely booted out by a clever and ambitious upstart...

Ok this is true!!! Maybe I'm just insane

 

[Rand]

snip

 

[Haunover]

as a "younger" resident of euro, i dont feel like the positions in high executive and the cabinet are being broadcasted enough to newer nations. i think the solution to getting more nations in offices is to promote the positions they might like to them in their first week or so of citizenship. i myself didn't join a ministry for a few days after i joined because i 1. couldn't find the applications in the forums and 2. they weren't really broadcasted as things i could do.

 

[Lethen]

as a "younger" resident of euro, i dont feel like the positions in high executive and the cabinet are being broadcasted enough to newer nations. i think the solution to getting more nations in offices is to promote the positions they might like to them in their first week or so of citizenship. i myself didn't join a ministry for a few days after i joined because i 1. couldn't find the applications in the forums and 2. they weren't really broadcasted as things i could do.

While I understand and appreciate your point about not finding the applications because forums are not always intuitive, I'm a little more skeptical about your second point. Every citizenship application (and presumably the thread itself where one finds the application) includes a section with various hyperlinks to ministry applications, joining Discord, the Newcomers Handbooks that likely cover a lot of these things in more detail, etc.

Short of people directly talking to a new player about various opportunities, I'm not sure how much more direct it could be.

Edit: and even then, some people don't like being approached directly and find it off-putting/sometimes overwhelming

Second edit: also aren't a lot of these positions and various opportunities mentioned gameside in dispatches and the WFE as well? Though tbf dispatch prioritization shifts often based on what's being promoted by the Exec

 

[upc]

Short of people directly talking to a new player about various opportunities, I'm not sure how much more direct it could be.

We do also do this, ftr

also aren't a lot of these positions and various opportunities mentioned gameside in dispatches and the WFE as well? Though tbf dispatch prioritization shifts often based on what's being promoted by the Exec

Yes, although they could probably be advertised better

 

[sanjurika]

A bit late, but I think that as I've settled into the region and developed what I'm good at in NS I've started to realize that the Presidency doesn't really fit my style of play/approach to the game. For me, I feel more accomplished in the role of minister or background support character. I'm not known for coming up with big sweeping ideas, and I think when you're president people tend to look to you for the big ideas. Plus, writing a campaign is probably up there with the most time I've ever spent purely on NS.

Would it be cool to be president? yeah. And I've definitely privately considered running to see what happens. But right now I have no desire to pursue anything above a minister role :>

 

[Rand]

snip

 

[upc]

A bit late, but I think that as I've settled into the region and developed what I'm good at in NS I've started to realize that the Presidency doesn't really fit my style of play/approach to the game. For me, I feel more accomplished in the role of minister or background support character. I'm not known for coming up with big sweeping ideas, and I think when you're president people tend to look to you for the big ideas. Plus, writing a campaign is probably up there with the most time I've ever spent purely on NS.

Would it be cool to be president? yeah. And I've definitely privately considered running to see what happens. But right now I have no desire to pursue anything above a minister role :>

You can also be President and just help your Cabinet achieve their big ideas! I don't think the President has to come up with all the ideas. In my term, I tried to step back a lot and let Ministers innovate. They're closest to the action and often have the best ideas.

I strongly agree with this -- it is great to have a President with their own ideas, but it is just as if not more valuable to have a President who can identify other talented people with ideas of their own and then give them the guidance and authority to execute those ideas!

 

[Lethen]

For me, I feel more accomplished in the role of minister or background support character. I'm not known for coming up with big sweeping ideas, and I think when you're president people tend to look to you for the big ideas. Plus, writing a campaign is probably up there with the most time I've ever spent purely on NS.

A bit late, but I think that as I've settled into the region and developed what I'm good at in NS I've started to realize that the Presidency doesn't really fit my style of play/approach to the game. For me, I feel more accomplished in the role of minister or background support character. I'm not known for coming up with big sweeping ideas, and I think when you're president people tend to look to you for the big ideas. Plus, writing a campaign is probably up there with the most time I've ever spent purely on NS.

Would it be cool to be president? yeah. And I've definitely privately considered running to see what happens. But right now I have no desire to pursue anything above a minister role :>

You can also be President and just help your Cabinet achieve their big ideas! I don't think the President has to come up with all the ideas. In my term, I tried to step back a lot and let Ministers innovate. They're closest to the action and often have the best ideas.

I strongly agree with this -- it is great to have a President with their own ideas, but it is just as if not more valuable to have a President who can identify other talented people with ideas of their own and then give them the guidance and authority to execute those ideas!

I really identify here. Like Sanju, I've always preferred, to some degree in this game and IRL, to be more behind-the-scenes or at least not very front-facing with my projects. I enjoy the mystique of being a person who knows a lot of things and has a decent level of influence with decision-making without the pressure of being the top dog or taking larger blame if some project or initiative falls flat. I don't think it's quite to the level of unseen puppet master thankfully .

In NS, that approach has helped me tremendously but also burned me. I take a more collaborative approach with admin work and the OSC. Admittedly, I've rarely if ever had to play the "I'm the boss and this is our final call whether you like it or not" card. It sometimes helped me as President, and I think my more hands-off big picture-focused approach was instrumental to the Culture terms I oversaw in 2011 (maybe as VP after that as well to a lesser degree). It did not serve me AT ALL while I ran the GAP though; that demanded a much more hands-on approach and more direct management, and I failed on both counts.

I always have a hard time getting the ball rolling on work projects when I'm starting them from scratch and don't have an easy launching-off point. It isn't really an issue with things here or with my 4H work, but I'm also incredibly confident and feel secure in my roles in those parts of my life so...maybe I don't need to feel validated there?

 

[Olde Delaware]

Meh I'm always down to do grunt work in a Ministry or be a Minister, I spend a lot of time at my RL job bored to death so always looking for something to keep my time. Unfortunately, no one comes calling these days and haven't for sometime so it is what it is.