[2nd Euro Census] April 8-12, 2020

[Malashaan]

I had a president who just said "take up whatever projects you care about and run with them" and mostly left me alone to do things.

But it didn't prepare you for being President, either, because being the President wasn't about those things.

The whole experience certainly did. In the areas I was responsible for as VP, I essentially did the same as President. But more importantly, I was in the room for every decision. Major issues were discussed and the President ultimately made the call, but I was involved in the decision making process. There were certainly times I disagreed with the call and then had to do the good VP thing and do everything I could to make the course of action chosen work, but I was already very used to the process by the time I became President. There were certainly hard adjustments. Not having the backstop of being able to avoid issues as "not my call" and passing them up the chain got some time to get used to, and the increased attention to my every word was a challenge but it would have been a lot harder to adjust without the terms as VP as preparation.

 

[Aexnidaral]

What incentive to I have to be either of those things? I'm in favor of reform. I'm saying the Senate isn't taking the time to get the region on board and it's led to a chaotic process that's caused declining support. Getting voted in doesn't mean you're immune to criticism.

I resent that you say that we are somehow making this process chaotic and not getting the region on board. Besides the possible exception of the CoS Election Amendment everything we have discussed has had poll after poll made about it. The discussions have been going on for a month and a half at this point. We still don't have a concrete plan. We are taking are time on the broader reform.

Look, folks, outside of this major change to the way we form our Government that we revived last minute due to an off-forum discussion and are ramming through without secondary debate that would have a serious impact on the upcoming election, things are not chaotic at all.

 

[Calvin Coolidge]

I guess I'm confused why bringing something back from the table that we said we would bring back if the reform discussion wasn't wrapped up by the CoS election is chaotic if that was the plan all along? It doesn't really need much discussion now, since it was already discussed, and we already know where people stand. This is a product of the reform discussions from the campaign, which people were very supportive of, and I sort of just feel like the people that are against this were the same people against this bill from the get-go, but whatever.

 

[Peeps]

I guess I'm confused why bringing something back from the table that we said we would bring back if the reform discussion wasn't wrapped up by the CoS election is chaotic if that was the plan all along? It doesn't really need much discussion now, since it was already discussed, and we already know where people stand. This is a product of the reform discussions from the campaign, which people were very supportive of, and I sort of just feel like the people that are against this were the same people against this bill from the get-go, but whatever.

This, as well as me strongly disagreeing that this is wholesale reform of the government. This is a measure that makes it so the highest officer of Europeia is elected by the people. This was discussed, Calvin is right, we thought we might be able to get some reform done by now. We have not. Anyways this is NOT us writing a new constitution in the dead of night. It is moving an election from the Senate to the people, where it belongs.

 

[McEntire]

What incentive to I have to be either of those things? I'm in favor of reform. I'm saying the Senate isn't taking the time to get the region on board and it's led to a chaotic process that's caused declining support. Getting voted in doesn't mean you're immune to criticism.

I resent that you say that we are somehow making this process chaotic and not getting the region on board. Besides the possible exception of the CoS Election Amendment everything we have discussed has had poll after poll made about it. The discussions have been going on for a month and a half at this point. We still don't have a concrete plan. We are taking are time on the broader reform.

The CoS Amendment is a large part of what I'm saying when I say chaos. I think that the overall effort has been more rudderless than chaotic, but the point stands. I'm not impugning the effort of individual Senators, I'm just calling for the process to take a wider view.

I guess I'm confused why bringing something back from the table that we said we would bring back if the reform discussion wasn't wrapped up by the CoS election is chaotic if that was the plan all along? It doesn't really need much discussion now, since it was already discussed, and we already know where people stand. This is a product of the reform discussions from the campaign, which people were very supportive of, and I sort of just feel like the people that are against this were the same people against this bill from the get-go, but whatever.

Since when was that the plan?

 

[Calvin Coolidge]

snip

Since when was that the plan?

Perhaps it is worthwhile to table this, and we can revisit it if the reform discussions fall apart. I am sympathetic to those who are making the argument that this amendment is splintering our reform discussion simply by existing, and probably deserves a larger discussion than is appropriate right now.

That is my post from March 25, the day the bill was tabled.

 

[McEntire]

snip

Since when was that the plan?

Perhaps it is worthwhile to table this, and we can revisit it if the reform discussions fall apart. I am sympathetic to those who are making the argument that this amendment is splintering our reform discussion simply by existing, and probably deserves a larger discussion than is appropriate right now.

That is my post from March 25, the day the bill was tabled.

I think you'd agree that "we can revisit it if the reform discussions fall apart" is different than "we can pass this two weeks before the next election if the reform effort takes longer than that."

 

[Darcness]

"we can revisit it if the reform discussions fall apart."

So... you're saying the reform discussion has fallen apart? I didn't know you were quite that defeatist, Calvin.

 

[Calvin Coolidge]

I think there is a real chance that no reform gets done this term, and I think this is a good place to ensure we get something done. Has the discussion fallen apart? No, not yet. But I think action needs to be taken, or it risks falling apart. We have a good opportunity to do so here, and I hope we take it.

 

[Kuramia]

I think there is a real chance that no reform gets done this term, and I think this is a good place to ensure we get something done. Has the discussion fallen apart? No, not yet. But I think action needs to be taken, or it risks falling apart. We have a good opportunity to do so here, and I hope we take it.

I hate this take. XD Honestly it's still defeatist. So what if reform doesn't get done this term! You should focus on getting it to a place where the next Senate won't have to scramble to find out where they were. THAT is the problem usually had in carrying things over. There's no guide to go 'here we are; the rest is mapped out if you wanna go that direction'.

Calvin, you said in Eurochat you expected more discussion and then say here, just above, no more discussion is needed. You keep saying you mean one thing, but the persistent perception from other people is the opposite. Being able to step back and acknowledge why someone else has a different take on what's happening would lead to a lot less frustration all around.

(And yeah, I'm aware the conversation in Eurochat has gone further than this, but no one on the forums knows yet.)

 

[McEntire]

I think there is a real chance that no reform gets done this term, and I think this is a good place to ensure we get something done. Has the discussion fallen apart? No, not yet. But I think action needs to be taken, or it risks falling apart. We have a good opportunity to do so here, and I hope we take it.

But see, this is exactly my point. Changing the mechanism by which we elect an Executive is not an "action" to be taken to jump-start a discussion. There are implications here, of potential voter confusion when we change our elections twice in six months. And which is it? Are we trying to "get something done" to ensure that there's some reform? Or are we trying to capitalize on the population boom? This is what I'm saying, we need to figure out the problem we're trying to solve!

I'm not trying to attack this Senate either, just trying to suggest an alternate approach.

 

[Lethen]

I think there is a real chance that no reform gets done this term, and I think this is a good place to ensure we get something done. Has the discussion fallen apart? No, not yet. But I think action needs to be taken, or it risks falling apart. We have a good opportunity to do so here, and I hope we take it.

Wait, this implies you thought reform would be done in one term's time. Why did you think that would be feasible? Look at how long reform took to put this system into place! I don't think we'll hit that same length of time, but I imagined that a lot of people expected this Senate to get a lot of work done and, in the very least, tee up a lot of things for the next Senate to take on.